Lemon Law Thread: How many have or are filing Lemon Law for their S550?

[Cobra Jet]

I just completed my replacement with Ford. The process started with Ford Customer Service then they submitted a good faith estimate review on 3/24, approved on 4/1. First contact with RAV was on 4/2. We “closed” the deal on 4/23. Towards the end of everything they slowed their pace a lot and had delays in meeting the deadlines they stated. Overall it was an easy process just seriously time consuming. Still waitin g for them to pay off my other Mustang....

Yes, that seems to be an ongoing issue with Ford RAV regarding the delayed payoff of the returned collateral.

Just a note to anyone doing a Buy Back, whether it’s a total Buy Back Refund OR a Buy Back Vehicle Replacement:
Check and triple check that the returned vehicle’s Loan has been satisfied in full by Ford RAV and your lending institution. Make sure you get an official letter from the Lender stating within the letter that the Vehicle Make, Model, Year and VIN has been completely paid in full and there is no outstanding debt tied to your name or credit.

Sponsored

 

[Mrmarkmac]

Thanks Cobra Jet. I hope you’re right, as the deduction is about double using the BBB paperwork formula. Even asking BBB, they state the Manufacturers program is what is followed, and it’s the form showing the BBB formula. The part that worries me, is that before Ford will send out a worksheet, they require me to ‘accept’ the BBB arbitration document. That doc stated that by accepting, I waive future rights to go after Ford for the same issues, unless Ford doesn’t live up to their side of the arbitration (which is the doc showing the other formula).

I’m in Texas and even on the BBB site they show the Texas LL formula, but not in the documents agreeing to arbitration. They ask you to agree to terms which are the different formula.

I’ll definitely come back to provide updates. I really wish Ford would have just fixed whatever the problem was. I’m gonna miss driving the 5.0. The wife’s new CX-5 will have to do until I figure out what’s next, but seems to be plenty of great deals these days.

 

[Cobra Jet]

Thanks Cobra Jet. I hope you’re right, as the deduction is about double using the BBB paperwork formula. Even asking BBB, they state the Manufacturers program is what is followed, and it’s the form showing the BBB formula. The part that worries me, is that before Ford will send out a worksheet, they require me to ‘accept’ the BBB arbitration document. That doc stated that by accepting, I waive future rights to go after Ford for the same issues, unless Ford doesn’t live up to their side of the arbitration (which is the doc showing the other formula).

I’m in Texas and even on the BBB site they show the Texas LL formula, but not in the documents agreeing to arbitration. They ask you to agree to terms which are the different formula.

I’ll definitely come back to provide updates. I really wish Ford would have just fixed whatever the problem was. I’m gonna miss driving the 5.0. The wife’s new CX-5 will have to do until I figure out what’s next, but seems to be plenty of great deals these days.

@Mrmarkmac

I would reach out to the BBB POC you were dealing with and point out that the formula used in the docs you received does not appear to be correct. Point out the actual Texas LL formula or send it to them (make sure it’s taken right from your .gov site, not a third party website). Also make absolutely sure that the mileage value they are using in the formula is correct. In most States, the mileage used would be the mileage value used from the first warranty instance that is the cause for the Lemon Claim.

If the BBB is referring to the “Manufacturer’s Program”, that would be the Ford RAV process; RAV would be following your Home State Lemon Law provisions and such fees/formulas implemented by the State.

Definitely call BBB and go over your concerns and all docs before signing ANYTHING.

————

Once you get the Ford RAV paperwork, be sure to review everything that you are required to sign and return in a timely manner by the imposed deadlines. When Ford RAV presents you with their “worksheet” showing all figures for either a refund or a vehicle replacement, make sure any figures provided are in agreement to YOU. If you don’t agree with any figures presented by RAV, you tell them and decline the worksheet; RAV will have to re-work any declined worksheet and send it back to you again for approval. Nothing is final until you approve and sign off. Once you sign docs, you’re agreeing to what is on those docs as far as what is being agreed to by you and Ford. So be sure to review everything and go over your own figures making sure it meets your expectations.

One more thing, once you get the paperwork with the final figures agreed to - if you had a loan on the vehicle, be sure that the Pay Off figure they are using includes any recent payments you have made and is the absolute most current Pay Off figure. Others have found that due to the timing of the process start to finish that the Pay Off had obviously changed - so don’t short change yourself.

 

[damships]

UPDATE: Week 2 since getting the Buy Back approved to start the process and RAV has yet to contact me. My Regional CSR contacted me again this morning to follow-up to see if they have contacted me and I informed him they have not and this is the second week. I inquired with him to see if RAV have their own number I can contact and my Regional CSR said they do not. He said they should call me today or tomorrow. I informed him if they do not call me by the end of the day tomorrow that I would be calling the Customer Service number again to see what's going on, but then he advises me it would be a waste of time as they would not be able to help with the process. I told him I understand it's not his fault and I understand COVID-19 is causing significant delays, but I informed him it's strange and frustrating that he's telling me no one has their contact information at all? Is this accurate? I don't want to be charged for mileage on this vehicle (if my state does that) just because RAV is taking their sweet time to get the process started.

 

[Cobra Jet]

UPDATE: Week 2 since getting the Buy Back approved to start the process and RAV has yet to contact me. My Regional CSR contacted me again this morning to follow-up to see if they have contacted me and I informed him they have not and this is the second week. I inquired with him to see if RAV have their own number I can contact and my Regional CSR said they do not. He said they should call me today or tomorrow. I informed him if they do not call me by the end of the day tomorrow that I would be calling the Customer Service number again to see what's going on, but then he advises me it would be a waste of time as they would not be able to help with the process. I told him I understand it's not his fault and I understand COVID-19 is causing significant delays, but I informed him it's strange and frustrating that he's telling me no one has their contact information at all? Is this accurate? I don't want to be charged for mileage on this vehicle (if my state does that) just because RAV is taking their sweet time to get the process started.

If your Buy Back has been approved, normally it transitions out of the Regional CSR and over to a RAV CSR. You will get a totally different person and a new phone number for that RAV Rep.

Here’s what you do:
Call back the number you would normally, but don’t input the CSR’s extension. Wait or select the proper option for the Operator. When the OP gets on the line, request to speak to a Supervisor and tell the OP you’ve been more than patient, you’ve been waiting weeks for updates or follow on to finish the Buy Back and need this to come to a resolution ASAP.

The Supervisor will be more helpful than the CSR.

 

[damships]

If your Buy Back has been approved, normally it transitions out of the Regional CSR and over to a RAV CSR. You will get a totally different person and a new phone number for that RAV Rep.

Here’s what you do:
Call back the number you would normally, but don’t input the CSR’s extension. Wait or select the proper option for the Operator. When the OP gets on the line, request to speak to a Supervisor and tell the OP you’ve been more than patient, you’ve been waiting weeks for updates or follow on to finish the Buy Back and need this to come to a resolution ASAP.

The Supervisor will be more helpful than the CSR.

Thanks Cobra! Will definitely do this if they do not call me by the end of the day tomorrow. I understand RAV Dept is a different department, I believe contracted through Ford, but two weeks just to get the process STARTED is a little ridiculous. If they already had my paperwork and such I'd be much more patient, but I don't even have that yet.

 

[Mrmarkmac]

Here’s where the BBB posts the Ford Manufacture Program. When I call and speak to my BBB rep, they just point to this, as the agreed program between BBB and Ford. If you click Texas and then the PDF it comes up. Funny they also link to Texas LL right below it, but don’t discuss it with respect to arbitration calculation. And per the agreement, Ford won’t send a worksheet until I sign accepting arbitration judgment.

http://www.auto.bbb.org/auto-line-participants/National/Ford/

I only have 10 days to accept the arbitration, which includes the wonky formula. I think I’ll submit the formal LL to the DMV and see what they say, if anything before I have to sign anything.

 

[Cobra Jet]

Thanks Cobra! Will definitely do this if they do not call me by the end of the day tomorrow. I understand RAV Dept is a different department, I believe contracted through Ford, but two weeks just to get the process STARTED is a little ridiculous. If they already had my paperwork and such I'd be much more patient, but I don't even have that yet.

Tip:
Don’t wait on RAV - you’ll be in a forever circle of “we’ll call you back”.... trust me. You’re going to have to get a Supervisor in play. Be stern (but professional and polite) and let that Supv. know you’ve been more than patient, you’re about ready to go “public” with this issue and that they need to make you whole ASAP by pushing the paperwork OR getting things moving.

Don’t worry - don’t think of it as and you’re not being “pushy”, but you do deserve resolution - it’s been way too long for them to start moving things for you. Just stand your ground and be firm with them.

The RAV paperwork should arrive to you via FedEx and they should also send you a link or email with the information too. If you have not received that or are not up to that part yet - then you have to stress that to the Supervisor and let him/her know “hey, enough is enough already”.

 

[Cobra Jet]

Here’s where the BBB posts the Ford Manufacture Program. When I call and speak to my BBB rep, they just point to this, as the agreed program between BBB and Ford. If you click Texas and then the PDF it comes up. Funny they also link to Texas LL right below it, but don’t discuss it with respect to arbitration calculation. And per the agreement, Ford won’t send a worksheet until I sign accepting arbitration judgment.

http://www.auto.bbb.org/auto-line-participants/National/Ford/

I only have 10 days to accept the arbitration, which includes the wonky formula. I think I’ll submit the formal LL to the DMV and see what they say, if anything before I have to sign anything.

Not knowing the intricacies of your BBB Award - did you select or were you awarded a Buy Back Refund or a Buy Back Vehicle Replacement?

 

[Mrmarkmac]

Not knowing the intricacies of your BBB Award - did you select or were you awarded a Buy Back Refund or a Buy Back Vehicle Replacement?

No selection. The arbitrator awarded repurchase.

 

[Cobra Jet]

No selection. The arbitrator awarded repurchase.

Is the BBB “repurchase” meaning you are getting a refund of the monies you bought the car for and are not getting another Ford - or is that repurchase a vehicle replacement, meaning they are taking your existing S550 and you are picking out another Ford?

 

[Mrmarkmac]

Is the BBB “repurchase” meaning you are getting a refund of the monies you bought the car for and are not getting another Ford - or is that repurchase a vehicle replacement, meaning they are taking your existing S550 and you are picking out another Ford?

repurchase meaning refund. Not the replace option. So their formula is all miles (-100 for some reason) divided by 100k x purchase price. Yet the Texas LL is divided by 120k to first issue, then 50% for miles after that. Ball park, the BBB reduction is double what the LL would be.

I only have 6,600 miles on it, but first issue was at 1,200. Using my purchase price, the BBB reduction from purchase price is $2,400 and Texas LL formula would be $1,200. In the end it’s still minimal difference in the big picture to close the book on all this, but I’d obviously like to avoid walking away from $1.200. I’ve had the car 19 months, so I’ve spent more on insurance than what I’ll be out on the refund.

 

[Cobra Jet]

repurchase meaning refund. Not the replace option. So their formula is all miles (-100 for some reason) divided by 100k x purchase price. Yet the Texas LL is divided by 120k to first issue, then 50% for miles after that. Ball park, the BBB reduction is double what the LL would be.

I only have 6,600 miles on it, but first issue was at 1,200. Using my purchase price, the BBB reduction from purchase price is $2,400 and Texas LL formula would be $1,200. In the end it’s still minimal difference in the big picture to close the book on all this, but I’d obviously like to avoid walking away from $1.200. I’ve had the car 19 months, so I’ve spent more on insurance than what I’ll be out on the refund.

Great, the above clarifies the BBB decision to you regarding the “repurchase” aspect.

The info from the BBB site and the TX .gov site (https://www.txdmv.gov/motorists/consumer-protection/lemon-law) assuming this vehicle is not a lease and for future readers, the TX formula for “Reasonable Allowance for Consumer Use” applies to a Refund OR Vehicle Replacement and is noted as such:

And on the TX .gov site, they do have a worksheet that helps to understand their dual usage penalty formula a little better:

Reading what is on the BBB and TX .gov site is definitely kind of confusing. Try downloading their worksheet onto a Computer or device that can utilize MS Excel or a derivative of it. I’m doing this from an iPad, so it’s not allowing me to plug any figures into their worksheet once I d/led it because I don’t have any compatible program on this device.

If you have not tried it, plug in all applicable values of yours into their worksheet.

It seems there are 3-points of specific mileage values needed and the formula is broken out into those two parts as such:

1) Unimpaired Miles:
Total Defective Condition miles on vehicle from initial warranty repair for which is the cause for the Lemon Claim MINUS the total Delivered Miles to you at time of vehicle purchase. So the “delivered miles” would be the mileage that was on the vehicle the day you signed the paperwork to purchase.
Hypothetical example:
1,000 miles @ 1st reported defective condition
MINUS 15 miles delivered = 985 total miles.
985 Miles
DIVIDED by 120,000
MULTIPLIED by total price you paid listed on your vehicle invoice = Unimpaired Value


2) Impaired Miles:
Total Miles on vehicle as of your BBB Hearing Date MINUS Defective Condition Miles from 1st part of formula.
Hypothetical example:
5,000 total miles on vehicle as of BBB Hearing date
MINUS 1,000 Miles Defective Condition = 4,000 total miles.
4,000 Miles
DIVIDED by 120,000
MULTIPLIED by total price you paid listed on your vehicle invoice
MULTIPLIED by 50% = Impaired Value

—-
Unimpaired Value
PLUS
Impaired Value = Total Reasonable Amount for deduction.
—-

Purchase Price, including tax paid, title, registration and license
MINUS Total Reasonable Amount for deduction
MINUS $35.00 (TX State Filing fee for repurchase process)
———————————————
Equals Total Refund due to you


It’s definitely a convoluted formula, but it’s derived by the State of TX. This type of formula varies from State to State where it is enforced and is a requirement for mileage use penalty. IMO, no State should impose that penalty, it’s ridiculous. Why should anyone having to go through such an ordeal be penalized any further?

Hopefully the above helps a little better. If you have the BBB decision where Ford has to repurchase, then everything looks legit as far as the formula calcs are concerned. Initially it didn’t make any sense why TX was imposing “two” formulas, but after seeing the worksheet it makes more sense...although I don’t agree that anyone should be hit with such a fee/penalty.

 

[damships]

RAV finally emailed me confirming the buyback and they said they are going to send me my options for buyback or replacement. Question, for the replacement vehicle, is the search range 500 miles if I don’t like anything near me? I’m aware other dealerships don’t have to work with me if they don’t want to during this process, but I’m not seeing too many options where I live. I see some GT’s in Arizona and New Mexico I like within 500 miles, but I’m not sure if that search range is too far or if they’ll even do anything out of state.

 

[Cobra Jet]

RAV finally emailed me confirming the buyback and they said they are going to send me my options for buyback or replacement. Question, for the replacement vehicle, is the search range 500 miles if I don’t like anything near me? I’m aware other dealerships don’t have to work with me if they don’t want to during this process, but I’m not seeing too many options where I live. I see some GT’s in Arizona and New Mexico I like within 500 miles, but I’m not sure if that search range is too far or if they’ll even do anything out of state.

When I went through my RAV BB vehicle replacement in 3Q 2017/1Q 2018, I went to my local Ford Dealer. The Sales Rep there assisted with a search of what I wanted as the replacement - which was an exact match S550 to my prior 2016. There was nothing on their own lot or locally in a 100 mi radius. He then did a 500, then a 1k radius, nothing at all. Mind you when my RAV BB was approved it was mid-Sept of 2017. Due to my specific RAV Case and the fact that I wanted an exact replacement to my original, Ford authorized a brand new 2018 Special Order build since an exact match in a 2016 or 2017 did not exist in Ford’s new vehicle inventory country wide.

IF a 2017 exact match had existed at the time, I was told both by RAV and the Sales Rep that if the vehicle was located off site from my local Dealership, Ford would arrange transport of that vehicle to my local Dealership (no charge to the consumer).

The replacement Ford must be a new Ford product found either already on a Ford Dealership lot or one that exists in the Ford inventory system.


SIDEBAR NOTES:
For anyone reading, don’t think you’ll be able to request Ford to “build” a replacement vehicle, it does not happen like that at all. My situation and Case was very unique. It was a very lengthy warranty repair experience with many attempts at repair efforts, tons of documentation, involved extensive contact with Ford’s Engineering Team, (2) Ford FSE’s, etc, When the RAV vehicle replacement was approved and there was not an exact replacement to be found, due to the Case history and how things transpired, additional levels of internal approval was needed to get a Special Order Build that resulted in a positive outcome for all parties.

RAV will not assist with you finding your replacement vehicle. You are responsible for picking/finding the replacement and your Ford Dealership Sales Rep is only the middle man between you and RAV. The Sales Rep will help you with inventory searches and such guidance, RAV does not. Once you lock in on a vehicle that you like, the Sales Rep then contacts RAV with that VIN info and getting the process rolling to procure the other vehicle. The Sale Rep’s only other role in the process is inspection of original collateral, inspection of new vehicle, signing of additional docs regarding the RAV transaction and signing of any other normal new car paperwork.

When the day comes to turn over your collateral, make sure you inspect the new car in the daylight (or under dealership’s garage bay lighting) and also test drive it before sitting down to complete paperwork.

Sponsored