Is it now between Bernie and Bloomberg?

[Docscurlock]

The Fed will control the power grid? Talk about a money pit.

From the above link:

Generating $6.4 trillion in revenue from the wholesale of energy produced by the regional Power Marketing Administrations. This revenue will be collected from 2023-2035, and after 2035 electricity will be virtually free, aside from operations and maintenance costs.

Free energy too!, he gets my vote.

Sponsored

 

[watisthis]

Why don't both of you explain how and why it would 'sink the economy.' Not saying it would or wouldn't, but I would like to see either of you use math and data to support your claims rather than unsupported opinions.

 

[lacanteen]

Here's more tin hat stuff. They are going to sue the companies licensed by the EPA.

Raising $3.085 trillion by making the fossil fuel industry pay for their pollution, through litigation, fees, and taxes, and eliminating federal fossil fuel subsidies.

.
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Edited to add: The above lawsuits would create inflation so out of control Venezuela would blush. Those costs would just be pushed on to the consumers as are all tariffs, regulatory costs, and taxes. ECON 101. Have the government take over the industry (sound familiar?) is communism 101.

 

[lacanteen]

Why don't both of you explain how and why it would 'sink the economy.' Not saying it would or wouldn't, but I would like to see either of you use math and data to support your claims rather than unsupported opinions.

My degrees in business admin, finance and economics and the fact that I never became a teacher, and the fact that I live and work in the middle of the US oil patch is plenty vetting for my knowledge, not opinion. I live in the real world and paid my own way through college before government effed it up with subsidies trying to help.

 

[Docscurlock]

Here's more tin hat stuff. They are going to sue the companies licensed by the EPA.

Raising $3.085 trillion by making the fossil fuel industry pay for their pollution, through litigation, fees, and taxes, and eliminating federal fossil fuel subsidies.

That is like 10x the value of every company in the US and Canada that produce energy. That is their profits over the next century. How can these people even put these ridiculous numbers out there?

 

[watisthis]

My degrees in business admin, finance and economics and the fact that I never became a teacher, and the fact that I live and work in the middle of the US oil patch is plenty vetting for my knowledge, not opinion. I live in the real world and paid my own way through college before government effed it up with subsidies trying to help.

Good for you, how about you apply some of your knowledge and explain rather than giving what seems like uneducated opinions. All you do is talk but never support your opinions, then you ask me to explain as if you can't or don't want to.

If I wanted to see biased pandering, deflection and misinformation without objective criticism and fact checking all day I'd just listen to MSM.

 

[Docscurlock]

Good for you, how about you apply some of your knowledge and explain rather than giving what seems like uneducated opinions. All you do is talk but never support your opinions, then you ask me to explain as if you can't or don't want to.

If I wanted to see biased pandering, deflection and misinformation without objective criticism and fact checking all day I'd just listen to MSM.

Or you could explain to all us dumb dumbs how Bernie's plan will work.

 

[lacanteen]

Good for you, how about you apply some of your knowledge and explain rather than giving what seems like uneducated opinions. All you do is talk but never support your opinions, then you ask me to explain as if you can't or don't want to.

If I wanted to see biased pandering, deflection and misinformation without objective criticism and fact checking all day I'd just listen to MSM.

The math does not add up. You can't collect damages that exceed the value of the companies as someone else already pointed out. There's very little chance that the suits can be filed because the companies were licensed, regulated, and taxed. If they are sued, taxed, fined, the costs will be passed on to the consumers. They sure as hell aren't going to absorb any of it. That spells inflation which means higher prices without any more goods and services, often less goods and services because higher prices reduce demand.

Read up on Louisiana suing big oil for Gulf operations. Those companies fled to Texas. Oil is a global product. They don't have to sell it here or obtain it here. Many Gulf of Mexico operations fled to Brazil under the last administration. The free market works that way.

Here is some more math for you. Let's say I propose a Mustang for every household. Imagine, how many people that would put to work, making parts, transportation, food service, etc, the entire supply chain needed to make a Mustang for every household. There were 128 million households in 2019. Let's say with the economies of scale, manufacturing that many Mustangs, the cost is $40,000 per car. That's only $5.12 Trillion and a boom for our economy. I'm sure Camaro and Challenger would want in on that too, they'll do it for $40K per vehicle if Uncle Sam is paying. BOOM life is good!

PSST: Where is the $5.12T going to come from?

 

[Docscurlock]

PSST: Where is the $5.12T going to come from?

It's called Bernie Math, it is now being taught in our schools instead of common core.
2+2 now equals 3.085 trillion

 

[watisthis]

The math does not add up. You can't collect damages that exceed the value of the companies as someone else already pointed out. There's very little chance that the suits can be filed because the companies were licensed, regulated, and taxed. If they are sued, taxed, fined, the costs will be passed on to the consumers. They sure as hell aren't going to absorb any of it. That spells inflation which means higher prices without any more goods and services, often less goods and services because higher prices reduce demand.

Read up on Louisiana suing big oil for Gulf operations. Those companies fled to Texas. Oil is a global product. They don't have to sell it here or obtain it here. Many Gulf of Mexico operations fled to Brazil under the last administration. The free market works that way.

Here is some more math for you. Let's say I propose a Mustang for every household. Imagine, how many people that would put to work, making parts, transportation, food service, etc, the entire supply chain needed to make a Mustang for every household. There were 128 million households in 2019. Let's say with the economies of scale, manufacturing that many Mustangs, the cost is $40,000 per car. That's only $5.12 Trillion and a boom for our economy. I'm sure Camaro and Challenger would want in on that too, they'll do it for $40K per vehicle if Uncle Sam is paying. BOOM life is good!

PSST: Where is the $5.12T going to come from?

What math does not add up? I'm asking you to show me the math. I could do a far better explanation of how it wouldn't work and I'm pro Bernie.

https://www.imf.org/en/Publications...Update-Based-on-Country-Level-Estimates-46509

It's not 3 trillion at once, the 3 trillion is over a decade. The subsidies and tax cuts being repealed are part of the 3 trillion and taxes on the stock market is also part of it. Let me point out that subsidies alone we Americans pay the fossil fuel industry 20 billion every year.

 

[Docscurlock]

What math does not add up? I'm asking you to show me the math. I could do a far better explanation of how it wouldn't work and I'm pro Bernie.

https://www.imf.org/en/Publications...Update-Based-on-Country-Level-Estimates-46509

It's not 3 trillion at once, the 3 trillion is over a decade. The subsidies and tax cuts being repealed are part of the 3 trillion and taxes on the stock market is also part of it. Let me point out that subsidies alone we Americans pay the fossil fuel industry 20 billion every year.

So it's all of the subsidies over the next 150 years? When we start making up trillions, the math gets harder. Please explain to me the dumb dumb how it wouldn't work and yet you are still pro Bernie.

 

[watisthis]

In fact, I'll argue against his ideas just to show you guys how to properly give educated opinions rather than copy/paste some headlines and think you're know it alls.

In 2018 43 US oil producers added up bringing in 28 billion in net income, given that number can be heavily obfuscated but for the sake of argument we'll keep it.

We give roughly 20 billion a year in subsides to fossil fuel companies. If we assumed these numbers didn't change at all during an 8 year term and we Tok all of the companies income for those 8 and all of their subsidies we end up with 384 billion or just under 10-15% of Bernies target.

So what then? Higher gas prices? I can't find an actual number for total money spend on gas in the US, but from a tiny bit on research I'm doing I can say a rough estimate would be 400 billion a year. This would bring in 3.2 or so trillion over those 8 years. Except that all of that money is already included in net income for the companies providing gas. We'd have to massively tax gas, which means fossil fuel companies wouldn't be paying for the green new deal and we would be.

That burden wouldn't fall on billionaires who can afford gas hikes or eco friendly cars, rather it would fall on the communities who can barely afford gas as it is. People will counter argue with bikes and buses but they're idiots and don't understand the communities that need gas the most have the least access to alternative means of transport albeit distance, low income areas, or just no public transportation existence.

I am really strongly in support of the green new deal, but just saying 'we'll make oil companies pay trillions' is hard to see, but once again I am not an expert on any of this and it is just my rough draft of research which is far more than most have done or are willing to put into words. I have this same discussion all the time on reddit so that professionals can inform me better but it isn't as simple as we would all hope, however, that is not to say it can't be.

It's difficult to get your head around just how much 3 trillion is. I believe its almost 10-15% of our entire nations GDP. Obviously there will be budget balancing and the like but its a very fucking high number. Good news is it'll push us further into needing to find alternatives.

I could argue carbon tax too and what a collapsed ecosystem will do to our economy but my god there is just so much to dig into when talking about this, climate change economics, and the energy sector which I do not know nearly enough about to be trying to teach others.

I believe it's 1% over 15 years assuming no GDP growth, which it obviously will, this will need to be worked out somehow or the opportunity cost of irreversible economic productivity will destroy more than just oil companies.

This literally took 20 minutes of google research and yet neither of you could do it properly. So forgive me if I can't take either of you seriously when you just copy/paste headlines that confirm your bias rather than taking even the tiniest bit of time to explain how it will or won't work.

 

[Docscurlock]

In fact, I'll argue against his ideas just to show you guys how to properly give educated opinions rather than copy/paste some headlines and think you're know it alls.

In 2018 43 US oil producers added up bringing in 28 billion in net income, given that number can be heavily obfuscated but for the sake of argument we'll keep it.

We give roughly 20 billion a year in subsides to fossil fuel companies. If we assumed these numbers didn't change at all during an 8 year term and we Tok all of the companies income for those 8 and all of their subsidies we end up with 384 billion or just under 10-15% of Bernies target.

So what then? Higher gas prices? I can't find an actual number for total money spend on gas in the US, but from a tiny bit on research I'm doing I can say a rough estimate would be 400 billion a year. This would bring in 3.2 or so trillion over those 8 years. Except that all of that money is already included in net income for the companies providing gas. We'd have to massively tax gas, which means fossil fuel companies wouldn't be paying for the green new deal and we would be.

That burden wouldn't fall on billionaires who can afford gas hikes or eco friendly cars, rather it would fall on the communities who can barely afford gas as it is. People will counter argue with bikes and buses but they're idiots and don't understand the communities that need gas the most has the least access to alternative means of transport albeit distance, low income areas, or just no public transportation existence.

I am really strongly in support of the green new deal, but just saying 'we'll make oil companies pay trillions' is hard to see, but once again I am not an expert on any of this and it is just my rough draft of research which is far more than most have done or are willing to put into words. I have this same discussion all the time on reddit so that professionals can inform me better but it isn't as simple as we would all hope, however, that is not to say it can't be.

It's difficult to get your head around just how much 3 trillion is. I believe its almost 10-15% of our entire nations GDP. Obviously there will be budget balancing and the like but its a very fucking high number. Good news is it'll push us further into needing to find alternatives.

I could argue carbon tax too and what a collapsed ecosystem will do to our economy but my god there is just so much to dig into when talking about this, climate change economics, and the energy sector which I do not know nearly enough about to be trying to teach others.

I believe it's 1% over 15 years assuming no GDP growth, which it obviously will, will need to be worked out somehow or the opportunity cost of irreversible economic productivity will destroy more than just oil companies.

This literally took 20 minutes of google research and yet neither of you could do it properly. So forgive me if I can't take either of you seriously when you just copy/paste headlines that confirm your bias rather than taking even the tinies bit of time to explain how it will or won't work.

Actually I research every number I give you except for the 2+2=3.085 trillion, I estimated that one. Even from your own research, you have discovered that is is impossible with the existing laws of physics and economics to implement even half of Bernie's Communist Wish List. It doesn't even make sense to you unless we realize that Putin really wants Bernie to win and it has been him all along that was supposed to win in 2016 and the democratic party foiled his plans by rigging their primary process in favor of Killary Klinton. Billionaires and millionaires and politicians will always be rich and never have to worry about this crap, the poor will always be poor and they don't care about anything but their vices and procreation, it's regular Joe's like you and me that will suffer. I guess if you want to tie your horse to their wagon they may throw you some oats form time to time. i have no interest in government oats, I want to work, save my own oats and live my life. The difference here is I am trying to save for retirement and slow down working and you seem to be content to work at your government job. Me, I'm tired of being the public's punching bag and want to start enjoying life.Maybe a .gov job is what I need, why not add more bloat to the bloat?

 

[watisthis]

Actually I research every number I give you except for the 2+2=3.085 trillion, I estimated that one. Even from your own research, you have discovered that is is impossible with the existing laws of physics and economics to implement even half of Bernie's Communist Wish List. It doesn't even make sense to you unless we realize that Putin really wants Bernie to win and it has been him all along that was supposed to win in 2016 and the democratic party foiled his plans by rigging their primary process in favor of Killary Klinton. Billionaires and millionaires and politicians will always be rich and never have to worry about this crap, the poor will always be poor and they don't care about anything but their vices and procreation, it's regular Joe's like you and me that will suffer. I guess if you want to tie your horse to their wagon they may throw you some oats form time to time. i have no interest in government oats, I want to work, save my own oats and live my life. The difference here is I am trying to save for retirement and slow down working and you seem to be content to work at your government job. Me, I'm tired of being the public's punching bag and want to start enjoying life.Maybe a .gov job is what I need, why not add more bloat to the bloat?

This right here, this is how I know do you not do any research, at least not any actual objective research.

 

[Docscurlock]

This right here, this is how I know do you not do any research, at least not any actual objective research.

Why because it makes no sense that ex communist countries like Russia would want our President to be a communist, destroy our country, decimate our military and make it easy for Russia to invade and take over? If Bernie wins, it's set, game , match.

I don't have to research to have the opinion that retirement sucking at the .gov teat is not a retirement that I want. I don't have to research to have the opinion that every person should be willing if they are able to support themselves. I don't have to do research to know that the "rich" and "government elite" will take care of themselves and don't give a shit about regular people.

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