HPDE - Harnesses

[BimmerDriver]

While not directly addressing the OP's questions, I'll share my experience on track. First, I'll add that this topic has all kinds of opinions, science and a growing number of regulations, so it's not an easy thing to address.

I've crashed three times on track. Once in my car (Corvette) in which I had a five point harness secured by a harness bar for both occupants. Neither of us were injured, except that my left arm was hurt by the air bag going off. There was no passenger airbag.

The second time was with a student in his Corvette, stock three point harness, and we were both fine, no airbag deployment although most of the front of the car was destroyed. Because plastic car. Seriously though, I suspect that the engineering of that car (C5) was quite superior to my car (C4) and the car absorbed a lot of the impact itself, saving us.

Third was with another student in his M3, we were both wearing 5 point harness with a half-cage, I believe, I got whiplash on that one because we hit the wall sideways. A HANS probably would have helped me there.

Ask me why I don't instruct any more. LOL

In my Mustang, I put in a non-standard certainly-would-not-pass-tech harness bar with a five point harness with the stock seat. Because I didn't want to cut into the seat, I ran the sub belt around the cushion. The setup was uncomfortable, difficult to use and would likely have not done me much good in an accident. I had it only to help keep me in place while driving, and I also put on the OE three point belt to actually protect me if something happened. So, what's that, an eight-point harness?

HPDE is a slippery slope that gets more and more expensive the further you slide down it. Once you reach a certain point of driving skill, speed and a desire for safety, you really just need to bite the bullet and accept that your car is now a dedicated track weapon that must be towed to the track, never to drive on the street again. Swapping back and forth between track and street legal can just be a royal PITA, and if you do enough events a year, unmanageable.

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[shogun32]

Ask me why I don't instruct any more. LOL

I always thought it was nuts. We don't coach motorcycle riders. I mean instructing by pointing out brake points, turn-in, where to look, how to enter a problem corner is useful but doesn't require speed.

 

[Biggsy]

Isn’t a quick fit pro effectively a 3 pt in a crash? How would the hans stay secure when the seam rips?

To be honest I don’t know the exact answer to your question. Someone more knowledgeable can answer. I would imagine it taking great force (not saying a crash isn’t) for the seams to rip. If it does then I would suspect that the harness was installed incorrectly or was damaged prior to installation

 

[Biggsy]

I always thought it was nuts. We don't coach motorcycle riders. I mean instructing by pointing out brake points, turn-in, where to look, how to enter a problem corner is useful but doesn't require speed.

I see your point but inputs vary with speed. So yes some instructing can be done at a slower pace but in my experience it was helpful having an instructor in car as I got faster because his coaching also changed and pointing out new things to pay attention to

 

[BimmerDriver]

I see your point but inputs vary with speed. So yes some instructing can be done at a slower pace but in my experience it was helpful having an instructor in car as I got faster because his coaching also changed and pointing out new things to pay attention to

Oh, absolutely! In-car instruction is incredibly valuable, and I am fortunate in that I got to do a lot of that as I learned, and I got to do a whole bunch of HPDE as an instructor with lots of track time. And sometimes I quite enjoyed instructing. Other times I was scared to death.

But that was back in the 90s and early '00, and cars are sooooooooooo much faster now that it's simply nuts. The last time I instructed (2020) was in a lead/follow format, and my novice student was in an Audi S6 that could (and did) do 140+ on the straights with street tires, stock brakes, etc. He admitted to me later that he didn't prep the car properly (did not flush the brake fluid like he should have) just reinforcing my decision to stop doing in-car instruction.

 

[theruleslawyer]

To be honest I don’t know the exact answer to your question. Someone more knowledgeable can answer. I would imagine it taking great force (not saying a crash isn’t) for the seams to rip. If it does then I would suspect that the harness was installed incorrectly or was damaged prior to installation

From my understanding the quick fit harnesses are design to have seams on one shoulder rip in a crash so your torso rotates to prevent submarining. Its not a failure, but a design feature.

 

[slowdown]

You don't need that stuff. Your car is perfectly safe with 3 point belt, airbags, and a helmet just like 99% of all HPDE requires. My buddy was a GT series driver for years and he told me "never wear a harness unless you are driving a fully caged car".

 

[shogun32]

my novice student was in an Audi S6 that could (and did) do 140+ on the straights with street tires, stock brakes

that's the thing, corner entry speeds are often not that high. There's no need to go fast on straights. It serves no purpose. A modest 15mph slow down to correct corner entry speed (for skill level) is all that's required. Let the idiots banzai into a corner on their lonesome.

Not to say you still can't lose control at 50mph and end up into the wall or kitty litter, but your margin for error is vastly higher when you come into a corner at a resting heart rate and can focus on throttle pickup and maintaining correct trajectory.

First do it RIGHT and do it right EVERY time. Speed will come much later.

 

[Biggsy]

You don't need that stuff.

I understand this however I think the quick fit harness should be a minimum. More benefit with than without. Holding yourself in your seat or bracing against the steering wheel leads to discomfort and more prone to unintentional steering inputs. Having the quick fit helped me a lot to stay in my seat.

 

[themik99]

I understand this however I think the quick fit harness should be a minimum. More benefit with than without. Holding yourself in your seat or bracing against the steering wheel leads to discomfort and more prone to unintentional steering inputs. Having the quick fit helped me a lot to stay in my seat.

Same here. I found myself bracing against the door and using the steering wheel to keep myself in place when I was just using the stock 3 point. With the quickfit pro I'm very relaxed, well secured, and can focus on driving. I picked up a ton of time after installing them.

 

[shogun32]

With the quickfit pro I'm very relaxed, well secured, and can focus on driving.

no doubt. but I wonder if it is just masking the problem.

In bikes you learn to use some major force with your thighs, stomach and lower back instead of trying to control upper body with shoulders and arms. That cars can't lean into the corner means there is much more centripetal force but surely we can focus on 'core' muscle contraction and keep shoulders and arms loose? It's not like we're doing 4hr+ stints in a race - it's only 20-30min at a time.

 

[Ewheels]

Hopefully this will help some who are still learning:

When it comes to safety equipment, it's all or nothing.
Factory 3pt belt plus airbags work in a crash because the 3pt belt allows your body to move forward and rotate. Then the airbag comes in and decelerates your body and keeps you in a mostly upright position.
Same with a roll over - the roof collapses but the factory seat is designed to break away, allowing your body to lay flat, avoiding injury.
Manufacturers and the NHTSA know what they're doing.

In a race car, the fixed back seat is designed to not move or break in a crash, the belts keep your body glued to the seat, the HANS keeps your neck from snapping in a front-end crash, and the roll bar/cage prevents the roof from collapsing and killing you.

Novices tend to pieces some of these together but ignore the whole picture.
Typical incomplete setups forget the HANS or the roll bar.

A crash with harnesses but without a HANS means your body is glued to the seat but your head is free to move. So in a front-end crash, your body stops moving but your head keeps going forward = your neck snaps and you die.

A roll over crash with fixed seats + harnesses but without a roll bar or cage means the roof collapses but your body cannot get out of the way. Your head and neck now become the highest point in the car = again, you die.

I know, safety equipment is expensive, but how much is your life worth to you?


The Schroth Quik Fit works like a 4pt to keep you in place while driving, yet breaks away in a crash, allowing your body to rotate like a standard 3pt.
Most if not all organizations allow these

 

[tosha]

The Schroth Quik Fit works like a 4pt to keep you in place while driving, yet breaks away in a crash, allowing your body to rotate like a standard 3pt.
Most if not all organizations allow these

Since the same was mentioned couple times in this thread, let me ask if there is a reference to the manufacturer materials (website or manual) that says the same?

Like few others in the thread, I'm just looking to secure myself better in the stock non-recaro leather seat. At the same time, I'm ok with stock car safety at my stage and don't want to alter what smart engineers designed into this car.

So, as you rightfully mentioned, usual racing harnesses should not be used without HANS unless one wants a giraffe neck, so I thought that it would be a good idea to use it with QuickFit, as it fixes both of driver shoulders same as any other harness does. Now, you are saying that one of the straps is designed to extend in an event of a crash, which means that HANS isn't really such a big deal here. If you can help confirm that by sharing manufacturer provided information, that would be great.

But, there is a but... HANS devices are designed to keep a helmet/head in place and are securely held by 2 shoulder straps. In case of QuickFit, there is only one shoulder strap working in a crash event, I actually don't know if HANS manufacturers test that, but it may potentially create all sorts of other issues. Any thoughts on this?

 

[theruleslawyer]

4:48

 

[shogun32]

ANS devices are designed to keep a helmet/head in place and are securely held by 2 shoulder straps. In case of QuickFit, there is only one shoulder strap working in a crash event, I actually don't know if HANS manufacturers test that, but it may potentially create all sorts of other issues.

correct. HANS are only designed for 2 non-tearing straps.
If you stay with factory seats, and use a non-tearing 4-point then you must have a HANS. But you can NOT also have a harness bar or anything behind the seat that will interfere with the seat getting pancaked.

I wonder if non-factory 'adjustable' (pivoting back) seats are also designed to pancake and adhere to the same crash standards. The prowl in the rear-ward direction doesn't have to be particularly robust under normal use...

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