GT500 vs ZLE

[762Cat]

This thread got funny fast. Anybody who complains about ride quality in a car designed to destroy race tracks shouldn't be buying one. What next? It's to loud? The acceleration is to scary? At least your are driving a "Shelby" and Carol was right about you. You don't want a race car.....you want something that feels like one....and the answer to that is pure HP.

Amazing how everything else sucks and the GT500 is the 1/4 mile king but we rush to add 200hp the day we buy it. Why would it need that? You can spend enough money to make anything fast. Want a Honda Civic that runs 9s? No problem! How bout a Mini Van, a Diesel truck or the infamous Farm truck? If the car stands alone on it's own merit why the rush to tune it? At that point the it's the best car ever from the factory argument is null and void.

I know I know....some cars make better platforms, and I'm being a lil facetious on purpose. The GT500 is a PHENOMENAL car. But King of the world it is not. Warrant the price? Meh......it's still 50/50..... Potentially yes..... at MSRP yes...with ADM that's a HARD sell.

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[shogun32]

Or expression of ones opinion, even if it is based on second hand knowledge or lack of experience.

I've driven a ZLE on regular streets around Vienna VA, and trade off between my S550 and SS/1LE. The ZLE's suspension does a noticeably "bad" job of absorbing high-flow compression events. Granted I haven't held a disassembled unit in my hands but given the various articles and pictures of the parts, the valve spring is either vastly too stiff, there are too few ports, the port windows are too high, or the gas pressure is way too high. My money is on the first and last in that list. Having run the Steeda dual-rate springs on my S550 the mannerisms have some similarity so I expect the spring rates are also a bit much.

Anybody who complains about ride quality in a car designed to destroy race tracks shouldn't be buying one.

It's one thing to build a track car, but GM needs to come clean and outright declare it in their advertising. They don't. And by that metric Ford could have totally ruined the CFTP's behavior but they didn't. And it still seems to do a commendable job on track.

Since the dealers don't allow test drives people end up buying them and returning them shortly thereafter. The used ZLE I drove changed hands 3 times in the span of 5 months.

 

[ZRacerLE]

I've driven a ZLE on regular streets around Vienna VA, and trade off between my S550 and SS/1LE. The ZLE's suspension does a noticeably "bad" job of absorbing high-flow compression events. Granted I haven't held a disassembled unit in my hands but given the various articles and pictures of the parts, the valve spring is either vastly too stiff, there are too few ports, the port windows are too high, or the gas pressure is way too high. My money is on the first and last in that list. Having run the Steeda dual-rate springs on my S550 the mannerisms have some similarity so I expect the spring rates are also a bit much.


It's one thing to build a track car, but GM needs to come clean and outright declare it in their advertising. They don't. And by that metric Ford could have totally ruined the CFTP's behavior but they didn't. And it still seems to do a commendable job on track.

Since the dealers don't allow test drives people end up buying them and returning them shortly thereafter. The used ZLE I drove changed hands 3 times in the span of 5 months.

Magnetorheological dampers are the only way in 2020 to get both high comfort and high performance, but you still cannot get extreme performance out of them. The no free lunch theorem applies to every aspect of life. There are tradeoffs everywhere. The DSSVs in the ZLE are tuned for extreme performance which gives up 90% of the comfort (you guys complaining about the ride are such pussies... only kidding).

It would be nice for the non track rats if the Chevy online configurator and the dealers (although they are all pretty much idiots) would warn the normal people that this car is likely not for you. I will say Al Oppenheiser does warn us in various articles and videos that the ZLE is very extreme and customers should understand what they are getting in to. I know, 90% of customers are not going to get this message until it is too late!

If the CFTP car had the extremely tuned DSSVs like the ZLE, it would be even faster on the road course, but it would be nearly impossible to sell a $95K mustang that is not daily driveable. The fact that it is a triathlete (drag, road race, comfortable) is what justifies its extreme price tag... and it IS justified in my opinion.

 

[V00D00]

LOL, so when the test is complimentary... they are no longer 'paid opinions to stir drama'... yet you continue to use the 'beating of the C8' as some sort of gospel... even though everyone that isn't a blue oval fanboi, knows the C8 base model is never intended to beat GT500's or ZLE's. They haven't come out with their 'track inspired' higher end models yet... but boy you love saying how the top of the line mustang beat the new base model corvette.... PUHLEESE.

And... Facts... again... you continue to 'only read/hear' what is positive to mustang... since the 'Steering numbness' must be 'paid pot stirring'... here are the FACTS from the C&D article:

Car and Driver instrument testing: https://www.caranddriver.com/review...ng-shelby-gt500-vs-2019-chevy-camaro-zl1-1le/

At the test track, the Camaro also outgripped and outstopped the Mustang, with a 1.17-g skidpad performance and stops from 70 mph in 137 feet and from 100 mph in 268 feet. The Mustang trailed but not by much. Its 1.13-g skidpad performance is impressive considering it carries 56.6 percent of its 4059 pounds over the front wheels. It stops from 70 mph in 142 feet and from 100 mph in 279 feet.

And while, yes... I live in AZ, and drive on smooth roads and smooth tracks, it's a nice perk that affords us to even daily drive track dedicated cars, as long as they have A/C. However, I'll be running a ZLE in One Lap of America, so I'm sure I'll take my bumps along the road... but I like firm sports cars. Oh... and another Fact the 'ZLE' is still a 4 seater... just can't say that about the CFTP car can you?. ;)

Since you went back and edited your post... yet still haven't responded Voodoo... Please share with us ANY 4 seater car currently produced that can beat the ZLE around the road course.. FOR ANY AMOUNT OF MONEY.

So yeah, you not only could have spent less, you'd have gone quicker... but maybe straight line is your thing?

Dave
PS... anyone notice how friggin' slow this site is since the update?

so you cant answer my question, then, because the 100k limit has always been in place, which already negates the BMW. so i fail to see how i could spend less, and get more?

but ill go ahead and respond. you have no data, you have tidbits of information, which the car is greater than the sum of its parts. We have seen this over an over and over again. it only has 760 hp, it weighs over 4k lbs.. yet here we are, watching it click off mid 10 sec passes and equaling performance ( subjectively beating had pobst not " been pobsting" it) all in one package. Meanwhile, your taking 1 attribute from different several cars, to compare it to

i take the concrete data that they gave, and showed its out performing those individual cars., not the sectional.

So again, show me a sub $100k car, that beats the 500 in every area.

 

[millhouse]

And... Facts... again... you continue to 'only read/hear' what is positive to mustang... since the 'Steering numbness' must be 'paid pot stirring'... here are the FACTS from the C&D article:

Car and Driver instrument testing: https://www.caranddriver.com/review...ng-shelby-gt500-vs-2019-chevy-camaro-zl1-1le/

At the test track, the Camaro also outgripped and outstopped the Mustang, with a 1.17-g skidpad performance and stops from 70 mph in 137 feet and from 100 mph in 268 feet. The Mustang trailed but not by much. Its 1.13-g skidpad performance is impressive considering it carries 56.6 percent of its 4059 pounds over the front wheels. It stops from 70 mph in 142 feet and from 100 mph in 279 feet.

I have to add, that while those data points are useful, they do not determine which car goes quicker around a track.

What's also interesting in that article is one of the cons listed for the ZLE...."Notable Body Roll".

 

[V00D00]

This thread got funny fast. Anybody who complains about ride quality in a car designed to destroy race tracks shouldn't be buying one. What next? It's to loud? The acceleration is to scary? At least your are driving a "Shelby" and Carol was right about you. You don't want a race car.....you want something that feels like one....and the answer to that is pure HP.

Amazing how everything else sucks and the GT500 is the 1/4 mile king but we rush to add 200hp the day we buy it. Why would it need that? You can spend enough money to make anything fast. Want a Honda Civic that runs 9s? No problem! How bout a Mini Van, a Diesel truck or the infamous Farm truck? If the car stands alone on it's own merit why the rush to tune it? At that point the it's the best car ever from the factory argument is null and void.

I know I know....some cars make better platforms, and I'm being a lil facetious on purpose. The GT500 is a PHENOMENAL car. But King of the world it is not. Warrant the price? Meh......it's still 50/50..... Potentially yes..... at MSRP yes...with ADM that's a HARD sell.

i love when people tell other people what to do. It screams about their personailty

meanwhile, they have multiple newer cars, 1 for each individual task, and then complain when 1 car that beats them at every task, they complain that the 1 car, costs more than the other 2 cars.. yet costs substantially less than the combination of the 2..

ilve built a 9 sec honda, you know what i didnt like about it, no back seat, its ride quality. crazy how i traded that for a very unique looking car, that fits 4, great ride quality, and with a nother 100hp, is going to be even faster than the honda..

 

[millhouse]

Multimatic DSSV has specifically engineered spool valve dampers for Ford Performance in the GT, GT MKII and Mustang GT4.

The firm ride associated with DSSV is so harsh that Multimatic DSSV is the factory damper on Ford GT. So harsh that Multimatic is in bed with Ford performance on the new GT MKII.

There is quite a bit of difference between a car designed with DSSV dampers.....and a car retrofitted with DSSV dampers.

 

[martinjlm]

Here’s how this rolls out for me. And first of all, I’ll just state for the record that even prior to GT500 and C8 launches I have been considering that my next performance car would either be a Base GT500 with Handling or a C8 GS or Z06.

So, fast forward to today and suppose I am buying a car today and it has to be either a CFTP or a ZLE. Here’s how my decision would probably fall out. One other thing, I do take my current car to the strip and the track and would probably do that even more so with the new car. I wouldn’t DD it, but I would drive it on most “nice days”

Performance:
I am seeing that there is a significant difference in 1/4 mile for the CFTP depending on whether prepped track or unprepped. I am not certain if Milan Dragway, the closest strip to me and the one I use most, is considered “prepped” or not compared to what we saw at Vegas / Texas. So CFTP would be the better 1/4 mile car for me. By how much seems to be track dependent.

We haven’t seen a true road course head to head yet, but based on the braking and slalom performance, I tend to put this category in the ZLE column until better information comes in. The Alpha platform is a beast and GM does great work in tuning it.

Just basic tooling around:
This could go either way for me. Clear win for the CFTP in terms of NVH. Clear win for ZLE in terms of appointments. The fact that ZLE includes heated and cooled seats, HUD, and an available PDR looms large in my decision making. The question would be does the content that I really want offset the difference in ride quality for me? I could flip flop on that issue all day, but would probably fall in on the side of if I’m not feelin’ the ride that day, there are other cars in my garage. The lack of back seats in the CFTP would be a non-issue for me, considering again, more cars in the garage plus the intent is to buy a performance car that I can drive on the street, strip, or track.

Appearance:
Both look good to me. CFTP slightly better. To be honest, if I had to rank Camaro and Mustang models in order of preference of appearance, the order (favorite to less favored) would be GT-350 —> SS 1LE —> ZL1 —> GT500 Base —> SS —> PP2 —> CFTP —> ZLE —> all the others. None are fugly, but that’s my order of preference. Not enough difference between my feel for CFTP or ZLE to be a deal breaker.

So choose damn it:
First, neither of these cars would be my first choice of a Camaro or a Mustang, but I did say I would choose specifically between these two. I think in this case, the difference in price would land me in the ZLE. If they were the same price I’d probably land in the CFTP. The HUD, seats, and PDR would pretty much make me feel better about the ZLE decision. If I go out and get my lunch handed to me on a drag strip, so be it. I’d be happy with being able to hit 11.5-ish. If I did better than CFTP on some road courses, cool. If I got smoked in the straights on other courses, still cool. I live with that today taking my SS Vert onto road courses. I lead some, I get gapped by some. When I get home I’m still smiling.

 

[Hack]

I still feel as though the ZL1 1LE automatically loses any comparison of cars intended to actually drive on the street. I would put the ZL1 1LE more in a category of cars built for track use only. I think GM went too far with the bigger hammer engineering when they used DSSV shocks with no bushings on the car. But when I buy a car I buy it 95% or more for street use because I know that's where I will be using it the most. I don't care if my car is a second or two faster on the track. I go to the track to have fun, not to set lap records.

I realize some other people are more willing to sacrifice comfort or spend a lot on a "5th car" than I am. And some people don't mind being bounced around inside a car. There are definitely bragging rights available when a car makes the magazine numbers. The practical side of me also wouldn't want ultra wide and ultra sticky short life tires on my car. The stopping and turning distances of the ZL1 1LE are potentially more about how short of tire life you are willing to have versus something about the chassis or car itself. I don't see the ZL1 1LE as a winner when most reasonable people will immediately remove the gumball tires and put tires intended for street use on the car. Or they just won't use the car much.

But I'm looking forward to actual track comparisons between the GT500 and ZL1 1LE. That will be another data point in the comparisons. I also would like to see the regular ZL1 vs. GT500. The regular ZL1 is a more practical and desirable car IMO.

We all know the GT500 is better for street and faster in the 1/4 mile. My assumption is that on larger tracks the GT500 will be quicker than the ZL1 1LE. But it should be interesting to find out.

 

[762Cat]

i love when people tell other people what to do. It screams about their personailty

meanwhile, they have multiple newer cars, 1 for each individual task, and then complain when 1 car that beats them at every task, they complain that the 1 car, costs more than the other 2 cars.. yet costs substantially less than the combination of the 2..

ilve built a 9 sec honda, you know what i didnt like about it, no back seat, its ride quality. crazy how i traded that for a very unique looking car, that fits 4, great ride quality, and with a nother 100hp, is going to be even faster than the honda..

Hahahahaha. I'm not telling anybody what to do. You shouldn't buy a race focused car with DSSV if you want ride quality seems like common sense advice to me. Pointing out the ride as a detractor seems silly when it's designed to own race tracks and it does it quite well. I've alway said the GT500 is a great car....just not THE single greatest car ever made as you clearly think. We all know it... we get it. If it is for you that's great and I know this is a Mustang Forum.

I've also never complained about any car beating any car at anything. I could care less. I love my cars and my ego is not tied to any of them. If I was in any way unhappy I'd get something else. Pretty simple. Still very much considering a 500 in fact. Although now that I've seen it in person I'm waiting patiently to see what the C8 Z06 brings. I have multiple cars because I love cars (most especially American cars) and I appreciate so many things about them. I'm very fortunate.

As for your analysis of peoples personalities I think you are way off and I've not been here long but long enough to know you are one of the most negative people on this forum and your the cars biggest champion. No problem for me, just an observation. You seem like an alright guy on youtube, I'm sure you are. We can disagree and still be friends you know. It will be good to see more track times from the GT500 as they get in the hands of competent drivers not paid by a magazine.

Time to go to work.... stay classy.

 

[mdmoore23]

Need to see a non cftp GT500 vs. regular ZL1 comparison. I think that would make for a pretty interesting comparison.

 

[ZRacerLE]

Need to see a non cftp GT500 vs. regular ZL1 comparison. I think that would make for a pretty interesting comparison.

Agreed!

 

[shogun32]

they used DSSV shocks with no bushings on the car.

Bushings won't solve the damping choice.

 

[FastCarFanBoy]

Internet racing... A bizarro world where racers must have heated and cooled seats to pamper their asses while at the same time are willing to endure spine compressing stiff suspensions for a fraction of a second in increased performance.

 

[V00D00]

Hahahahaha. I'm not telling anybody what to do. You shouldn't buy a race focused car with DSSV if you want ride quality seems like common sense advice to me. Pointing out the ride as a detractor seems silly when it's designed to own race tracks and it does it quite well. I've alway said the GT500 is a great car....just not THE single greatest car ever made as you clearly think. We all know it... we get it. If it is for you that's great and I know this is a Mustang Forum.

I've also never complained about any car beating any car at anything. I could care less. I love my cars and my ego is not tied to any of them. If I was in any way unhappy I'd get something else. Pretty simple. Still very much considering a 500 in fact. Although now that I've seen it in person I'm waiting patiently to see what the C8 Z06 brings. I have multiple cars because I love cars (most especially American cars) and I appreciate so many things about them. I'm very fortunate.

As for your analysis of peoples personalities I think you are way off and I've not been here long but long enough to know you are one of the most negative people on this forum and your the cars biggest champion. No problem for me, just an observation. You seem like an alright guy on youtube, I'm sure you are. We can disagree and still be friends you know. It will be good to see more track times from the GT500 as they get in the hands of competent drivers not paid by a magazine.

Time to go to work.... stay classy.

your missing the point. I didnt have to make sacrifices to have a the best 4 seating car under 100k for 2020..
Im an asshole here, because im in a gt500 forum, having to listen to people tell me, whith no 1st hand experience, what the car is and isnt.

I if I wanted to hear all the great benefits about a different car, the m4/5/6, c8 or zle, guess where i would go? If i were inclined, i would be there asking questions and learning about it, not defending my purchase and why its better.

so yes, we could be friends, If the forum dedicated to the car im interested in and finally own, wasnt constanly under attack with why its not a good car, and a pos camaro or boring M5 or fictional c8 z06 are better purchases

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