GT500 vs ZLE

Face76

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He bought a Camaro so he obviously likes Camaros. That is the definition of bias. Preferring one thing over another.

I don't know if he sandbags or not, but he definitely does a better job driving the GM products than he does in Fords. I can't understand it myself.



The Hellcat and GT500 definitely have some similarities. The GT500 is more tuned for grip and speed whereas the Hellcat is more tuned for burnouts. IMO there's a significant difference between them.

I'm definitely tempted by the Challenger offerings. I'm manual only, but if I ever decided to stop going to the road course I would probably buy a Challenger of some sort. They are nice on the road.



The reason one car has ADM and another can be sold under MSRP is how many people out there want to buy them versus how many are available. If a car doesn't sell it's overpriced (I would say that the ZL1 1LE is over priced at MSRP). Since the GT500 is selling at over MSRP - definitely MSRP isn't overpriced. Some ADMs are overpriced, but many are not.
I guess the GT350 and GT350R are overpriced then?

The ZL1-1LE is discounted now for two reasons - GM over produces most models and overwhelms demand and there are only so many buyers who want a track-focused camaro. Look at my 2016 Hellcat. Based on overwhelming demand for the 2015 model, Dodge over-produced the 2016 and many sat on showrooms for literally years. I leased my loaded (MSRP 73k) 2016 Hellcat with an out the door price of 59k, a residual of 46k and 15k miles per year for 3 years. This happened in April of 2017 when the 2018's were about to come out. I couldn't buy a Honda at that price. It doesn't make it over-priced at MSRP. It shows stupidity at the C suite.





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Hack

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Ask the R guys that paid huge ADMs over the last few years and even some that paid them for regular GT350s how they feel about that now and the current value of their cars. They took a bath if they hung on to them. I guess that gets to a more philosophical/personal discussion. I agree that market forces dictate what is worth what. But, there are definitely bubbles and things really aren't worth what you paid for them. Look at the the housing/stock market bubbles in the past and currently that are about to pop again. Just like my GT350(R) example. I also agree the ZL1/ZLE are overpriced at MSRP, luckily the market worked in my favor there and it was adjusted accordingly so I got a great deal.

I really really don't get the Randy thing here other than you know what. I also really really hope Billy responds with his thoughts as that is the only one some here might listen to. A bunch of people on the BMW forums thought the same thing about Cammisa because he hated the M3/4.

Agreed, I like the Hellcats for what they are and it would be a lot of fun to own one for a fun commuter/day trip car etc.
Yes, after 5 years GT350s and GT350Rs are selling for less and this winter they are under MSRP. People who paid MSRP for their ZL1 1LE might feel that way as well.

I'm not sure why anyone would be surprised when car values go down after a certain number of years.

I guess the GT350 and GT350R are overpriced then?

The ZL1-1LE is discounted now for two reasons - GM over produces most models and overwhelms demand and there are only so many buyers who want a track-focused camaro. Look at my 2016 Hellcat. Based on overwhelming demand for the 2015 model, Dodge over-produced the 2016 and many sat on showrooms for literally years. I leased my loaded (MSRP 73k) 2016 Hellcat with an out the door price of 59k, a residual of 46k and 15k miles per year for 3 years. This happened in April of 2017 when the 2018's were about to come out. I couldn't buy a Honda at that price. It doesn't make it over-priced at MSRP. It shows stupidity at the C suite.
The GT350 MSRP after being raised by Ford a couple of times is higher than I would pay - especially in the middle of winter. GT350Rs I think are still going around MSRP even after 5 years, but I think they are also too high.

I agree with what you are saying - IMO it's just a different way of looking at it. But when lots and lots of people want a vehicle at the named price, it's a lot easier to get people to pay over MSRP.

I think there's a very limited market for a really hard core vehicle like the ZL1 1LE. Heck, in my opinion the GT350R was too hard core. I get why some people wanted them, but I never seriously considered buying one. I think the ZL1 1LE is similar - it's a cool vehicle and good at turning corners - but very few people really want that at the price GM is charging for them.

I have said a few times that people should buy an Ariel Atom. It's way faster. And very hard core. But also ridiculous. Just like to me the ZL1 1LE is ridiculous. I can't even imagine driving around on the street with those big wings on the front of a car. Like driving around in a Viper ACR. Too crazy and I'd feel dumb driving that thing around on the street.
 

Minn19

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ZLE has been out a few years did they have an ADM when it first came out? I can tell you here in New England most dealers will not come down much off MSRP on a ZL1 or ZLE. $3-5K is the typical discount. I have never seen once priced below 15% off MSRP here and definitely not 25%+ like some deals on Corvettes.
Yes, after 5 years GT350s and GT350Rs are selling for less and this winter they are under MSRP. People who paid MSRP for their ZL1 1LE might feel that way as well.

I'm not sure why anyone would be surprised when car values go down after a certain number of years.



The GT350 MSRP after being raised by Ford a couple of times is higher than I would pay - especially in the middle of winter. GT350Rs I think are still going around MSRP even after 5 years, but I think they are also too high.

I agree with what you are saying - IMO it's just a different way of looking at it. But when lots and lots of people want a vehicle at the named price, it's a lot easier to get people to pay over MSRP.

I think there's a very limited market for a really hard core vehicle like the ZL1 1LE. Heck, in my opinion the GT350R was too hard core. I get why some people wanted them, but I never seriously considered buying one. I think the ZL1 1LE is similar - it's a cool vehicle and good at turning corners - but very few people really want that at the price GM is charging for them.

I have said a few times that people should buy an Ariel Atom. It's way faster. And very hard core. But also ridiculous. Just like to me the ZL1 1LE is ridiculous. I can't even imagine driving around on the street with those big wings on the front of a car. Like driving around in a Viper ACR. Too crazy and I'd feel dumb driving that thing around on the street.
You can find a ton of Rs for under MSRP and ton of GT350s in general sitting on lots that have been there for a long time.

The R I told you about in southern MN is still there and has been since last summer IIRC. I'm sure they'd cut a very nice deal to dump that thing. Especially since they have a regular GT350 sitting next to it that isn't selling either.

https://www.milopetersonford.net/ne...ntory-listing1-facet-anchor-normalBodyStyle-1

I don't see the 2020 R selling very well at the new 77k MSRP even with its "updates." If one can get find a base GT500 for a few k more, I'd guess most will go that direction. They allowed the Rs to be built for way to many MYs.

Good thing I stopped caring what most think about years ago in situations like the bolded, but I get where you are coming from. It is partly what has kept me from a 911. I still pick up my daughter from school in the ZLE and that is comical looking, but still just a Chevy Camaro. I can't imagine the looks etc if I started picking her up in a 911. I still might, but the those thoughts have crossed my mind since I live in a more rural blue collar type of town. I don't feel like the ZLE will get messed with like a flashy 911 would either when I go out to dinner etc. I could be wrong.
 
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Checkmate

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He bought a Camaro so he obviously likes Camaros. That is the definition of bias. Preferring one thing over another.

I don't know if he sandbags or not, but he definitely does a better job driving the GM products than he does in Fords. I can't understand it myself.

Wow. That's a new low. Randy has said time and again how much he loves the GT350/R and GT500. The man fires up the track unlike anyone else regardless of the brand marque.

You can't go around accusing someone as respected like him.

Ford loves him so much they specifically asked that he run the GT500 on track at VIR (which he did like no one else ever will). Just checkout the recent GT500 segment on MotorTrend where he writes and dedicates an entire article towards it. The man has beaten production car records at most tracks when given the chance.

Everyone is entitled to their opinions. If you see his tests with cars like the Corvettes, he has always been vocal of the issues with those cars.

The only model he likes from GM are the Alpha platform cars like....the Camaro because the chassis (even in base form) talks to drivers at the limit unlike anything in it's class.

Randy intrinsically hates rear instability.

The Camaro is the only platform from Chevy that is stable, hooks up and delivers regardless of the throttle. It talks to the driver at the limit. So, in 1LE guise - it ties up on all the goodness of the Alpha and pins it to the road.
 

Face76

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I would love to daily drive a Viper ACR Extreme. Too expensive for a dated platform.
 

ZRacerLE

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Wow. That's a new low. Randy has said time and again how much he loves the GT350/R and GT500. The man fires up the track unlike anyone else regardless of the brand marque.

You can't go around accusing someone as respected like him.

Ford loves him so much they specifically asked that he run the GT500 on track at VIR (which he did like no one else ever will). Just checkout the recent GT500 segment on MotorTrend where he writes and dedicates an entire article towards it. The man has beaten production car records at most tracks when given the chance.

Everyone is entitled to their opinions. If you see his tests with cars like the Corvettes, he has always been vocal of the issues with those cars.

The only model he likes from GM are the Alpha platform cars like....the Camaro because the chassis (even in base form) talks to drivers at the limit unlike anything in it's class.

Randy intrinsically hates rear instability.

The Camaro is the only platform from Chevy that is stable, hooks up and delivers regardless of the throttle. It talks to the driver at the limit. So, in 1LE guise - it ties up on all the goodness of the Alpha and pins it to the road.
Exactly... and to add, he didn't seem to like the C6 or C7 vettes or at least didn't seem excited about them if I recall correctly.
 

Hack

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Good thing I stopped caring what most think about years ago in situations like the bolded, but I get where you are coming from. It is partly what has kept me from a 911. I still pick up my daughter from school in the ZLE and that is comical looking, but still just a Chevy Camaro. I can't imagine the looks etc if I started picking her up in a 911. I still might, but the those thoughts have crossed my mind since I live in a more rural blue collar type of town. I don't feel like the ZLE will get messed with like a flashy 911 would either when I go out to dinner etc. I could be wrong.
I think you are smart to consider this. I feel the same way. 911s have a plain design, but people know they are very expensive. I think I've seen one or maybe two max on the streets in the area where I live. People own all sorts of expensive SUVs and pickups, but not many sports cars.

That's why I haven't bought any cars with loud colors and stripes. People at work gave me such a hard time for buying that GT350. Heck, they gave me a hard time when I bought the 2015 GT.
 

Hack

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Wow. That's a new low. Randy has said time and again how much he loves the GT350/R and GT500. The man fires up the track unlike anyone else regardless of the brand marque.

You can't go around accusing someone as respected like him.

Ford loves him so much they specifically asked that he run the GT500 on track at VIR (which he did like no one else ever will). Just checkout the recent GT500 segment on MotorTrend where he writes and dedicates an entire article towards it. The man has beaten production car records at most tracks when given the chance.

Everyone is entitled to their opinions. If you see his tests with cars like the Corvettes, he has always been vocal of the issues with those cars.

The only model he likes from GM are the Alpha platform cars like....the Camaro because the chassis (even in base form) talks to drivers at the limit unlike anything in it's class.

Randy intrinsically hates rear instability.

The Camaro is the only platform from Chevy that is stable, hooks up and delivers regardless of the throttle. It talks to the driver at the limit. So, in 1LE guise - it ties up on all the goodness of the Alpha and pins it to the road.
Ehh, it is what it is. It's a risk you take when you are a public figure. You just might get some criticism. Frankly, I think he's an amazing driver, but he's past his prime and there are better drivers out there. He's a good combination of driving ability and also capable in front of the camera, though. Not too many people have both.

When you produce detailed videos like Motor Trend does, people can analyze them in fine detail. Each corner can be looked at and compared. Speeds of the cars are shown at entry, mid-corner and exit. I would hate to consider having my driving ability under a microscope like that. Like I said, he's a great driver, but there are nits to be picked.

I do agree that he rated the GT350 and R highly and he knocked the C7 models that had problems. Maybe what I'm seeing is a product of my natural Ford bias. It's quite possible. I own a Corvette as my fun car right now, and I like to think I'm fairly open minded, but I do prefer Fords.
 

svttim

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Bottom line, it was a flawed test but, most tests are.
 

Checkmate

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Bottom line, it was a flawed test but, most tests are.
Indeed. Just like the Nurburgring Record by 991.1 GT2RS and GT3RS were on Cup 2 'R' tires which by the way customers do not even get on the production cars. Those R tires were made in an extremely limited batch and 'available' for sale outside of their production cars.

I remember AMG, Corvettes and Camaros being pissed considering Porsche got away with the technicality of it.

GT3RS laptimes are much lower on the regular production tires from Porsche.

There are flaws every where!
 

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