Ford PP 2 Pinging

[ice445]

I never did check over the winter. Nicer weather is here so I can spend more time in the garage. I plan on pulling the drivers side plugs and checking the gaps. If the gaps are not right, I'll do the passenger side which requires more effort to get at, otherwise I will leave them. I've had the car out a couple times so far this year and haven't noticed anything that sounds like ping. It could have been the drivers side cat heat shield which I adjusted.

I'm swapping my plugs tomorrow with the SP-589 before I put my kit on. Since mine is a late 2019 build I'm curious if I have the SP-548 or the SP-551 in there.

With that said, I suspect the gen 3 kit is much less likely to have this issue in general due to the DI system, it's basically free knock control.

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[Genxer]

I'm remember what pinging sounds like on old engines with a distributor. It was obvious. Back in the day you could hear other cars going down the road pinging!

I haven't heard anything like that with my car on PP2, but maybe a slight pinging is more subtle? I do hear mechanical sounds while in the garage just idling, and I chalk it up to having OHCs. The only rattle I have at a certain RPM is in my reverse lockout (due to a solid mounted shifter) which is silenced by putting my hand on it.

 

[StangTime]

I don't have the PP2 kit, but I have the Ford Performance intake/calibration. I was experiencing a pinging type noise and engine rattle on deceleration noise last fall before I put the car away for winter. While doing my oil change I was checking for anything that could be loose or vibrating. I found the drivers side cat heat shield was making quite a racket. I re-shaped it and the noise stopped when banging on it. I also found some steel brake lines just below the air intake housing also resonating when struck. I eliminated this noise too. Neither of these noises have come back in the handful of times I have driven this year. So I'm optimistic that I cured it, but time will tell.

 

[StangTime]

Still getting some kind of ping noise as I hit the accelerator moderately taking off in 1st. I didn't hear it earlier this year when the temperatures were colder. Definitely happens when the engine is hot. Going to take a peek at one of the plugs to see what's installed. I have to run through this tank of 91 and get back to my 93 octane for further testing.

 

[ice445]

Still getting some kind of ping noise as I hit the accelerator moderately taking off in 1st. I didn't hear it earlier this year when the temperatures were colder. Definitely happens when the engine is hot. Going to take a peek at one of the plugs to see what's installed. I have to run through this tank of 91 and get back to my 93 octane for further testing.

Check your knock adder while the noise is happening. If the correction is less than 9.99, it's not ping. I've noticed a ping like noise in 1st now post fpp tune that wasn't there stock. It's not ping though. I think it's the cam phasers making a wide adjustment. If you can record yours I'll tell you if it's the same as mine.

 

[StangTime]

Check your knock adder while the noise is happening. If the correction is less than 9.99, it's not ping. I've noticed a ping like noise in 1st now post fpp tune that wasn't there stock. It's not ping though. I think it's the cam phasers making a wide adjustment. If you can record yours I'll tell you if it's the same as mine.

I'll try and do that this evening. I have some octane boost I want to try. I will do a before and after data log.

 

[ice445]

I'll try and do that this evening. I have some octane boost I want to try. I will do a before and after data log.

I was doing some thinking, and I came up with some better ideas about may be happening. I'm not sure if you have the same thing as me going on, but the data will tell. I realized that the only time I get high KR is in 1st gear under moderate or high load. It didn't go out of the correctable range but it was up there, and you can observe a temporary noise that resembles ping.

1st gear has the most mechanical advantage, so the engine is under the least load and putting the most wheel torque to the ground. I'm thinking something may be hitting causing false knock to overlay over normal temp related timing retard/kr, causing the car to make a very large correction at once, leading to that noise. After all, it uses all its tricks to stop knock asap regardless if its all real or not. I know manual cars are normally more prone to false knock so it's a valid possibility. The stock tune had less base timing so the correction would be smaller, explaining why the noise never appeared stock.

Make sure you graph KR, total timing advance, load and rpm when you test. If boostane cures it and you aren't seeing much correction, then it's an octane issue. If you do see those large corrections in that spot and boostane does nothing, then it's probably false. Especially if it doesn't show up in any other gears.


*edit* So I drove home from work tonight, 50-60IAT's and my CHT's didn't get much over 205 since it was a relatively cool night. No real KR at all to speak of. Even saw some negative values for once. But for the most part is was around 0, maybe 1-2+ if I really got on it in a higher gear. Kind of rules out any false knock for me. Unless it has something to do with my exhaust hitting when the car is loaded down with camping gear, which is very possible. Whatever I was seeing before doesn't seem easily repeatable without letting the IAT's get really high from sitting.

 

[StangTime]

@ice445 Last night I had some time to go for a drive. But data collection was not the best. None of the streets where I live lead to "Mexico". The roads are always busy and I didn't have good opportunities to log and load the engine in the proper RPM range to induce the noise. I was either passing through the RPM range too fast or not able to dig in hard. I did manage to reproduce the noise in one situation on flat ground going from 2nd to 3rd. It was loud and it happened right at 2000rpm. Right at the point that I would hear the 2K rattle. I tried to hold it but the sound only lasts for 1 or 2 seconds and it's gone. Unfortunately I was not logging data at that time. The Procal sucks for data logs as you can't trigger it to start recording on a certain condition. If you start recording and just let it go, the data is too much and impossible to read. I only did 3 logs. My Procal will not do 4 successfully (maybe it's memory overflow related). My 3rd log was after octane boost and it got corrupted somehow and was unreadable. That figures. I was not able to induce the noise after the octane boost. I was also running out of time to try further test runs. So my results are inconclusive. I will take it out again tonight to see what happens with the octane adder in.

Here are some screen shots. Not sure what to make of these. KnkAdder never went above 5. Both pulls (1st one is uphill) that should have resulted in the audible knocking sound.

This doesn't behave like typical knock. I have driven cars with real knock and it's easy to hear under load at various RPMs. This noise sounds the same but is specific to a very narrow RPM range and does not continue. Is this related to the 2k rattle, or the dual clutch? Or is this a clearance issue with the exhaust or some other component?

 

[K4fxd]

Ford's PP tune is pretty aggressive in the 1500 to 2500 RPM range. I based my spark map off of it. I ended up reducing timing in that area due to knock retard, although I never heard any pinging or hammering.

 

[ice445]

Ford's PP tune is pretty aggressive in the 1500 to 2500 RPM range. I based my spark map off of it. I ended up reducing timing in that area due to knock retard, although I never heard any pinging or hammering.

The pp2 and gen 3 tunes are pretty different though.

@StangTime
I think that proves that the noise isn't ping. Try logging cam position, commanded versus actual. I get that the procal isn't ideal for logging. I personally use an obdlink mx+ with forscan lite on my phone. If I can figure out how to post that data without my computer I'll post mine up for comparison.

 

[StangTime]

The pp2 and gen 3 tunes are pretty different though.

@StangTime
I think that proves that the noise isn't ping. Try logging cam position, commanded versus actual. I get that the procal isn't ideal for logging. I personally use an obdlink mx+ with forscan lite on my phone. If I can figure out how to post that data without my computer I'll post mine up for comparison.

I'll log those parameters next. I was out driving with the octane booster mix this evening. I was able to make the knock sound a few times on throttle tip in. Although...(and I could be wrong) the higher octane may be helping to reduce it. On the other hand, it could have been the lower air temperatures having an effect. I find higher ambient temps make it more prone to produce the noise. More road testing required.

 

[ice445]

I'll log those parameters next. I was out driving with the octane booster mix this evening. I was able to make the knock sound a few times on throttle tip in. Although...(and I could be wrong) the higher octane may be helping to reduce it. On the other hand, it could have been the lower air temperatures having an effect. I find higher ambient temps make it more prone to produce the noise. More road testing required.

Octane booster will definitely help as far as keeping more timing. But I am curious if the noise is just hearing the car adjusting combined with the 2k rattle and other annoying bs. Wider adjustment probably means more noise. The open element intake also broadcasts more noise too.

 

[accel]

Octane booster will definitely help as far as keeping more timing. But I am curious if the noise is just hearing the car adjusting combined with the 2k rattle and other annoying bs. Wider adjustment probably means more noise. The open element intake also broadcasts more noise too.

2015-17 do not have 2k rattle, but have ping with power packs. Power Pack 1 uses oem (closed) intake element.

once power pack uninstalled the ping is gone.

 

[ice445]

2015-17 do not have 2k rattle, but have ping with power packs. Power Pack 1 uses oem (closed) intake element.

once power pack uninstalled the ping is gone.

True, but stangtime has the gen 3 kit. It certainly seems like some cars just don't jive with the extra timing though.

 

[accel]

True, but stangtime has the gen 3 kit. It certainly seems like some cars just don't jive with the extra timing though.

it is frustrating ford performance cannot figure this thing out for three coyote generations.

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