Power Pack pinging/detonation poll

[accel]

Around 400 miles later and with hpde event ahead Ive rolled back to stock. Very fast process

Detonation is immediately gone. I can use full range of gas pedal again.

I will re-install PP2 and play with it a little more later when I will be able to drive it for more time hoping it might adapt.

Switching to pp2 and back I'd say that long term improvement over stock is better driveability in 6th gear, better pedal response and fuel economy. Also, engine is feeling much better in 5000rpm to redline rpm range.

Since I would not push the car once I realized detonation was there - I. cannot claim I felt day to day power bump. With pp2 you feel more potential, but being unable to hit the floor and unleash it, you just do not get it. Stock feels like less power, but you can push the pedal all the way down and enjoy it.

Under the hood - they could do better job with intake cover. Sealing on top and from the side is just a joke. Do not know who designed a side insert to the filter, but it serves zero purpose and is so fragile - will not survive a couple of filter replacements. Water does make it to the filter from heat extractor area when the car is staying and from the front while driving. It does not make damage, but it does not mean it never will.

Inside cabin noise with stock intake is reduced back to comfortable level. Shelby intake introduces some unpleasant frequencies. Not much, but I learned to hate these specific ones while playing with aftermarket exhaust.

Now, since pp2 is sitting in the garage I will take time and design some better long term sealing around the intake.

P.S. One thing I mised during and after PP2 installation process - due to limited access in my garage I did not disconnect the battery. In theory pcm flashing should reset adaptations, but now I think, what if frpp guys have bugs in their flashing software and do not reset all adaptations? Do not know why it did not come to my mind to disconnect the battery later on. But next time I will install pp2 I will disconnect the battery for long period of time, maybe several times. Who knows, it might force to relearn.

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[accel]

There was Mustang PP3 driver. CA, 91 at hpde event today. I did not hear any detonation coming from his car.

Three must be something I'm doing wrong.

 

[CrashOverride]

There was Mustang PP3 driver. CA, 91 at hpde event today. I did not hear any detonation comind from his car.

Three must be something I'm doing wrong.

It's a different tune because it's a different intake manifold, so I don't think it is a good comparison. Ford might have it dialed in better for the GT350 IM.

 

[accel]

If Forc is saying not to worry about it you can be sure that they mean it ONLY if they put it in writing . I will pretty much bet that you will never see that in writing from them .

I remember seeing a statement on slight pinging (yes, they use this term) being normal on frp web site, but of course cannot find it there anymore.

A short burst of pinging upon pedal to the floor - I might buy it, but steady extended detonation in a wide range of rpms even in first gear - that is bad.

Even based on poll results - some people have it, some do not on 91. So, there might be something in installation process that is not followed by everyone. In particular, I did not disconnect the battery. Next time I re-install it I will disconnect the battery for like overnight.

 

[accel]

It's a different tune because it's a different intake manifold, so I don't think it is a good comparison. Ford might have it dialed in better for the GT350 IM.

Good point. Pp3 is very conservative midrange where all the pinging used to come in my case.

Would I opt for pp3 if I had this thought in mind? Not sure pp3 is appropriately priced for my goals. Plus I'd preffer someone experienced install it for me and that'd be extra. And still with potential of it pinging...

But this thread's poll might be flawed as it might need to differ by pp level. And logically pp3 should be less subject to detonation in midrange rpms compared to pp1 and 2.

 

[CrashOverride]

I remember seeing a statement on slight pinging (yes, they use this term) being normal on frp web site, but of course cannot find it there anymore.

A short burst of pinging upon pedal to the floor - I might buy it, but steady extended detonation in a wide range of rpms even in first gear - that is bad.

Even based on poll results - some people have it, some do not on 91. So, there might be something in installation process that is not followed by everyone. In particular, I did not disconnect the battery. Next time I re-install it I will disconnect the battery for like overnight.

My buddy gets his in 5th gear mostly, where you can easily sit at those problematic cells. 1500 to 2500 RPM are the problem children, and that's precisely where Ford said the gains are. The maps show a lot of extra advance there as well. And yeah, the pinging in his car will continue until he backs off. I think some of it is based on the speed of retard, and if I remember correctly, the stock settings allow for pulling up to 10 degrees of timing vs only 4 for the FRPP. I might be wrong though, that's entirely from memory - I haven't looked at the maps in a while.

I wish we could get clarification of what exactly is stored in the KAM, and what triggers it to update (Time, number of events, severity).

 

[EFI]

It's a different tune because it's a different intake manifold, so I don't think it is a good comparison. Ford might have it dialed in better for the GT350 IM.

PP2 and PP3 tunes are virtually identical. The only difference being the RPM limit and the intake manifold volume calculation.

But as far as timing, fuel etc they are identical.

I have the PP2 and have been tracking it for several years now and I log critical engine parameters with HPTuners on every run...I have yet to see any real sign of knock retard or detonation, it runs very cleanly at least when temps are in check. If you let your IATs and CHTs skyrocket, yeah you'll get some knock but noone should be beating on the car at that point.

 

[CrashOverride]

I didn't realize they were that close. It's amazing to me that they kept the tables basically the same, maybe they are relying on the learning to handle differences. This was my buddy's car when we tried it last summer. Ambient was 91F and IAT was 99F here. This was on CA91 octane. As you can see, we rolled into the throttle so as to not immediately jump to WOT fuelling, even though I picked this point where we were running at 0.85 lambda. This was after a KAM reset, but we had not driven it much, so if the ECU learns knock and stores it in the KAM, and if it takes a while to learn it, then it probably hadn't happened yet.

It's not an isolated event though, we were able to reproduce it anytime we wanted to:

I'm not positive why the ECU was trying to advance right when knock happened, it seems counter productive, but it's possible we were logging too many PIDs and the advance actually preceded the knock which we can't see here. By this time IAT was 108F and ambient cooled down to 88F. This was the same run, same fuel, etc... We have logs where we kept in the knock longer than these, well over a second or two, just trying to see if the ECU would pull enough timing - but it didn't. We only tried it once or twice though because we liked his pistons without "speed holes" in them.

 

[EFI]

I didn't realize they were that close. It's amazing to me that they kept the tables basically the same, maybe they are relying on the learning to handle differences. This was my buddy's car when we tried it last summer. Ambient was 91F and IAT was 99F here. This was on CA91 octane. As you can see, we rolled into the throttle so as to not immediately jump to WOT fuelling, even though I picked this point where we were running at 0.85 lambda.

Going WOT in 6th gear at 1400rpm might have something to do with it...

 

[CrashOverride]

True, but absent a dyno to hit those load cells in a steady state situation, it was the best way to stay in the rev range/mapped cells long enough to get meaningful data. Doing it in shorter gears wouldn't give useful data.

My buddy partially bought it because he wanted more torque in 6th when on the freeway. Yeah he could downshift, but Ford's "40 lb-ft gain at 1500rpm" was something he was hoping to take advantage of.

 

[accel]

Long story very short : disconnecting battery AFTER power pack installation made some noticeable difference.

With octane adjust option on it is pretty much like stock tune in terms of detonation. No detectable detonation. With octane adjust option off there's minor detonation, - very short bursts sometimes.

Long story long:

I reinstalled PP2 after hpde. I disconected battery before the install - both + and - for like 24 hours.

Left octane adjust option off this time. Installed everything. Detonation was pretty bad. Anything other than family sedan driving style would extensibly detonate. I gave it several days, no improvement. I could hear engine detonating with windows up inside the cabin.

So today (with pp2 installed) I opened procal tool, set octane adjust to ON, then disconnected battery for several hours. Both + and -.

Next time I drove the car - HUGE difference. No identifiable detonation.

Next ride I just flippedd octane adjust to ON. I can hear short quiet bursts of detonation, but very "acceptable". Maybe this miht be called slight pinging.

I will give it some more time. If pinging is not going away, I will redisconnect the battery again. No improvement - will turn octane adjust ON.

 

[Grimreaper]

The procal logging doesn't register the knock properly. Most likely because the ford performance tunes use knock per cylinder vs global. What it will show is correct total timing though. I have several logs across a few tanks of gas where I'm getting 26.5 to 27.5 degrees at 5500rpm and up and then a day or two later its down to 24.5 degrees.

Logging with hptuners shows the rest of the story though. Heavy part throttle usually 1 to 3 degrees knock retard on various cylinders. Wot also shows the same. Im on 93 octane pump. Logged across several tanks at different stations.

Nothing audible though like you guys are reporting. Im guessing 91 octane is knocking more than the max 4 degrees the sensors can pull and then you hear it audibly.

Im switching this tune to flex fuel to see how it does with e85 octane levels. I'm not crazy about running it in the summer if I'm getting kr in 65 to 70 degree air.

 

[CrashOverride]

Grimreaper - have you played around with the octane adjust? I'm curious what it does to the tune, and how it affects the kr. Yeah if you're seeing kr at 70* F with 93, no wonder we can literally hear it at 110* F and 91 octane gas. I noticed the change to per cylinder. In theory I like it though. How well the mics are calibrated/filtered though might be a different story.

 

[Grimreaper]

I like it too. Mainly because it should point out a cylinder that's running hotter or plug gap off etc.

I may switch this tune to global and see how it does too.

Im not sure how to recognize false vs real knock but I'm hoping extra octane will prove it real or false. Apparently a few tunners turn the knock gain down a tiny bit when false knock can't be resolved.

The octane adjust doesn't change anything from what I can find. I have not compared the tunes side by side, only using the compare feature in vcm suite. When you activate it in the Ford software, it didn't rewrite the tune. It pauses for 30 seconds then says success or complete.

I need to log it though. Haven't tried that yet. Maybe it just drops the stored octane level? I'll try that tomorrow. Curious if there is something in the bcm its changing as that's where the tire/speedo adjustments are in forscan. And iirc it blipped the lights when setting it like changing the as built data in forscan. Guess I can compare the bcm as built data too before and after octane adjust to make sure

 

[CrashOverride]

I know a few months ago there was discussion of the KAM re-learn, I wonder if that's where the magic is happening. Because as far as I know, you can't see the KAM data with HP, but you can reset it. We tried adding a little more fuel and it helped a tiny bit, but not by much. WOT lambda is reduced to 0.830 and 0.820 in some areas where stock was 0.850. thirty thousands of lambda probably amounts to a drip of gas at best, but I tried it anyway.

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