Did anyone ever do a Perf Pack 2 vs 1LE test?

[millhouse]

Higher volume? The latest data available (2017 model year) shows 1,512 Camaro SS 1LE's were built. How many GT350's were built for model year 2017? And ZL1 1LE's are far rarer, just like the GT30R. As far as desirability...very subjective!

It would be very, very sad if the 1LE and ZL1 were made in fewer numbers than the GT350. Very sad indeed.

Desirability isn't subjective. When people are willing to pay above MSRP, it's obvious as to how desirable the vehicles are. The 1LE and ZL1 can typically be had for under MSRP. ;)

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[martinjlm]

It would be very, very sad if the 1LE and ZL1 were made in fewer numbers than the GT350. Very sad indeed.

Desirability isn't subjective. When people are willing to pay above MSRP, it's obvious as to how desirable the vehicles are. The 1LE and ZL1 can typically be had for under MSRP. ;)

I really wonder where this whole “ZL1 being heavily discounted” stuff comes from. I only hear it over here on Mustang6. On Camaro6 what I hear are complaints that Chevy isn’t offering any discounts on ZL1 or any other Camaros. As someone here said a page or two ago, there were 3,048 (not less than 2,000) ZL1s were even built in 2017. The number is still out for 2018, but probably about the same. Everybody I know who has one (about 6 people, not counting people that I “intermet” on Cam6) ordered them, so their price was what was negotiated with their ordering dealer. I seriously doubt anyone on Mustang6 would be privy to that info.

A lot of the “deals” advertised online have so many caveats and qualifiers that no one could possibly qualify for the advertised price. For example, they start with the GM Employee & Family discount. Not available to everybody. Then there’s the “competing vehicle” discount, where if you have a lease on specific competitor vehicles you get x-amount off. Not to be confused with the “owner loyalty” discount where if you have an active lease on a GM vehicle you can get x-amount off. Then there are veterans discounts, which I believe cannot be used in conjunction with a GM Employee & Family discount, and since the GM E&F discount is better.... And all those discounts (exc GM E&F and Veterans) typically apply to anything in the GM portfolio except Cadillacs, Corvettes, and Camaro unless specifically included.

Kudos to GT350 for being able to get customers to pay above sticker. That says a lot about how well the Shelby and Mustang brands are received. But the idea that dealers are deep discounting ZL1 is flawed. I can’t see why it makes some feel better about their car choice to believe something that quite frankly is not true.

***CORRECTION*** 3,048 2017 ZL1s built. The under 2,000 number was for 1LE (V6 and LT1 combined)

 

[millhouse]

I really wonder where this whole “ZL1 being heavily discounted” stuff comes from. I only hear it over here on Mustang6. On Camaro6 what I hear are complaints that Chevy isn’t offering any discounts on ZL1 or any other Camaros. As someone here said a page or two ago, less than 2,000 ZL1s were even built in 2017. The number is still out for 2018, but probably about the same. Everybody I know who has one (about 6 people, not counting people that I “intermet” on Cam6) ordered them, so their price was what was negotiated with their ordering dealer. I seriously doubt anyone on Mustang6 would be privy to that info.

A lot of the “deals” advertised online have so many caveats and qualifiers that no one could possibly qualify for the advertised price. For example, they start with the GM Employee & Family discount. Not available to everybody. Then there’s the “competing vehicle” discount, where if you have a lease on specific competitor vehicles you get x-amount off. Not to be confused with the “owner loyalty” discount where if you have an active lease on a GM vehicle you can get x-amount off. Then there are veterans discounts, which I believe cannot be used in conjunction with a GM Employee & Family discount, and since the GM E&F discount is better.... And all those discounts (exc GM E&F and Veterans) typically apply to anything in the GM portfolio except Cadillacs, Corvettes, and Camaro unless specifically included.

Kudos to GT350 for being able to get customers to pay above sticker. That says a lot about how well the Shelby and Mustang brands are received. But the idea that dealers are deep discounting ZL1 is flawed. I can’t see why it makes some feel better about their car choice to believe something that quite frankly is not true.

Honestly, all of the discounts I've heard are from camaro people. People seem to love to brag how good of a deal they got on their ZL1. Hell, the camaro forums were littered with deals people we're getting. Maybe GM put a stop to their discounts, but if you look throughout the 2017 MY on the camaro forums, there we're plenty getting deals.

 

[martinjlm]

Honestly, all of the discounts I've heard are from camaro people. People seem to love to brag how good of a deal they got on their ZL1. Hell, the camaro forums were littered with deals people we're getting. Maybe GM put a stop to their discounts, but if you look throughout the 2017 MY on the camaro forums, there we're plenty getting deals.

Everybody brags about their negotiating skill. That doesn’t mean that dealers are scrambling to move Camaros. Hell, I got my $55k+ car for about $47k. GM E&F + $1,500 Auto Show discount (Detroit Chevy dealers were offering on ALL Chevy cars right after 2017 NAIAS) + $1,500 Lease Loyalty (I have two other Chevy leases in my garage) plus bartering with the dealer to get me to take in January the car that I knew I was gonna buy in March. He knew that I knew where every Camaro Fifty SS Convertible was from Detroit all the way north to Saginaw and all the way west to Kalamazoo and that if he didn’t give me the right deal, I’d wait until March and get it elsewhere. Not a single one of those discounts was “Camaro dependent”. I would have gotten them if I bought a Cruze or a Suburban or a Corvette.

 

[millhouse]

Everybody brags about their negotiating skill. That doesn’t mean that dealers are scrambling to move Camaros. Hell, I got my $55k+ car for about $47. GM E&F + $1,500 Auto Show discount (Detroit Chevy dealers were offering on ALL Chevy cars right after 2017 NAIAS) + $1,500 Lease Loyalty (I have two other Chevy leases in my garage) plus bartering with the dealer to get me to take in January the car that I knew I was gonna buy in March. He knew that I knew where every Camaro 50 SS Convertible was from Detroit all the way north to Saginaw and all the way west to Kalamazoo and that if he didn’t give me the right deal, I’d wait until March and get it elsewhere. Not a single one of those discounts was “Camaro dependent”. I would have gotten them if I bought a Cruze or a Suburban or a Corvette.

They may not be scrambling, but they have been moving them at under MSRP which was my point. Very, very few people were able to land GT350's at MSRP and even fewer GT350Rs.

Again, I'm not saying the ZL1 is a bad car, but it this all came down to desirability. Had the ZL1 been as desirable as the GT350, there would be dealer markups galore...which simply isn't the case.

 

[martinjlm]

They may not be scrambling, but they have been moving them at under MSRP which was my point. Very, very few people were able to land GT350's at MSRP and even fewer GT350Rs.

Again, I'm not saying the ZL1 is a bad car, but it this all came down to desirability. Had the ZL1 been as desirable as the GT350, there would be dealer markups galore...which simply isn't the case.

millhouse, I know YOU were not saying that, but there are several others in this thread that seem to be waving that banner and it just all seems like a really weird logic spin. The ZL1 is desirable to a lot of people. So is GT350. I like them both. I prefer the look of the GT350 and the performance of the ZL1. For what it matters, I find the ZL1 1LE to be a bit over the top in terms of appearance. I could have bought a ZL1 if I wanted. Thought about it. Don’t need the “extra” 195 hp and really liked the Fifty scheme. Also had decided that whatever I got was gonna be a V8 convertible. That narrowed it down to SS, ZL1, and Corvette.

As far as the dealer markups, GM has been VERY CLEAR with dealers that marking up specialty vehicles (performance models, limited run vehicles) is frowned upon. Can dealers do it? I’m sure. But why jeopardize favorable standing with central office? Ford is apparently cool with that. Different approaches.

 

[millhouse]

millhouse, I know YOU were not saying that, but there are several others in this thread that seem to be waving that banner and it just all seems like a really weird logic spin. The ZL1 is desirable to a lot of people. So is GT350. I like them both. I prefer the look of the GT350 and the performance of the ZL1. For what it matters, I find the ZL1 1LE to be a bit over the top in terms of appearance. I could have bought a ZL1 if I wanted. Thought about it. Don’t need the “extra” 195 hp and really liked the Fifty scheme. Also had decided that whatever I got was gonna be a V8 convertible. That narrowed it down to SS, ZL1, and Corvette.

As far as the dealer markups, GM has been VERY CLEAR with dealers that marking up specialty vehicles (performance models, limited run vehicles) is frowned upon. Can dealers do it? I’m sure. But why jeopardize favorable standing with central office? Ford is apparently cool with that. Different approaches.

We seem to be taking about this on two different fronts. ;)

I'm curious why GM would do anything to prohibit markups on specialty vehicles if it didn't limit production. I'm OK with markups on cars that people are willing to pay for. Dealers are able to make more money and Ford is able to create buzz about their halo vehicles. If the hype wasn't warranted, markups would fall to the wayside. I'm quite surprised ADM on the GT350 is still going on to be quite honest. And the thing is, it's not collectors that are buying these cars, it's people who want to drive them. Fords specialty vehicles have done very well in retaining their value.

The ZL1 is a hell of a deal, but I it also is a hell of a lot of HP for a daily driver (been there). Don't get me wrong, I'd daily the hell out of one given the chance, but you just can't wring these cars out on public roads without fear of death or Johnny Law. The GT350 isn't far behind either. These horsepower and 1/4 mile wars aren't sustainable.

 

[martinjlm]

We seem to be taking about this on two different fronts. ;)

I'm curious why GM would do anything to prohibit markups on specialty vehicles if it didn't limit production. I'm OK with markups on cars that people are willing to pay for. Dealers are able to make more money and Ford is able to create buzz about their halo vehicles. If the hype wasn't warranted, markups would fall to the wayside. I'm quite surprised ADM on the GT350 is still going on to be quite honest. And the thing is, it's not collectors that are buying these cars, it's people who want to drive them. Fords specialty vehicles have done very well in retaining their value.

The ZL1 is a hell of a deal, but I it also is a hell of a lot of HP for a daily driver (been there). Don't get me wrong, I'd daily the hell out of one given the chance, but you just can't wring these cars out on public roads without fear of death or Johnny Law. The GT350 isn't far behind either. These horsepower and 1/4 mile wars aren't sustainable.

I can’t and shouldn’t speak for GM leadership and their motives, but what I can tell you is based on things that were said at launch events I attended for C6 ZR1 and Z/28. Mark Reuss in particular has stated that the intent is to get the cars in the hands of customers who will use them as intended, instead of letting dealer speculation and price gouging place them primarily in the hands of collectors. Beyond that I can’t really say. There is no incentive to protect the dealers’ ability to price beyond MSRP, since none of that comes back to the company, but there is also no tangible reason that I can see to thwart their efforts.

 

[w3rkn]

Nobody is paying MSRP on Camaros.

Salesman on the lots, let you know that before you leave. You do not have to mention if you get GM discount, or other incentives. They are willing to deal before you head inside and speak to anyone.

 

[Hack]

They may not be scrambling, but they have been moving them at under MSRP which was my point. Very, very few people were able to land GT350's at MSRP and even fewer GT350Rs.

Again, I'm not saying the ZL1 is a bad car, but it this all came down to desirability. Had the ZL1 been as desirable as the GT350, there would be dealer markups galore...which simply isn't the case.

I agree with this 100%, but I would talk about it a little differently. If a potential buyer believes that the GT350/R and ZL1 are roughly equal in desirability, then the fact that they can get the ZL1 at or below MSRP would cause the buyer to purchase the ZL1 rather than the GT350/R.

That's what would happen, but in fact what is happening is that people are still paying ADMs on GT350s - even after 3 model years of sales. Obviously many buyers want a GT350 more than they want a competing product.

Equal desirability wouldn't directly cause ZL1 ADMs, but it would cause GT350/R sales (where the dealers are asking for an ADM) to fall to zero and all the customers would buy ZL1s. Since that hasn't happened there are some people who prefer the GT350/R over the ZL1 - even if they have to pay more/negotiate harder/shop longer to find the GT350/R.

 

[millhouse]

I agree with this 100%, but I would talk about it a little differently. If a potential buyer believes that the GT350/R and ZL1 are roughly equal in desirability, then the fact that they can get the ZL1 at or below MSRP would cause the buyer to purchase the ZL1 rather than the GT350/R.

That's what would happen, but in fact what is happening is that people are still paying ADMs on GT350s - even after 3 model years of sales. Obviously many buyers want a GT350 more than they want a competing product.

Equal desirability wouldn't directly cause ZL1 ADMs, but it would cause GT350/R sales (where the dealers are asking for an ADM) to fall to zero and all the customers would buy ZL1s. Since that hasn't happened there are some people who prefer the GT350/R over the ZL1 - even if they have to pay more/negotiate harder/shop longer to find the GT350/R.

We'll put.

 

[TheLion]

I agree with this 100%, but I would talk about it a little differently. If a potential buyer believes that the GT350/R and ZL1 are roughly equal in desirability, then the fact that they can get the ZL1 at or below MSRP would cause the buyer to purchase the ZL1 rather than the GT350/R.

That's what would happen, but in fact what is happening is that people are still paying ADMs on GT350s - even after 3 model years of sales. Obviously many buyers want a GT350 more than they want a competing product.

Equal desirability wouldn't directly cause ZL1 ADMs, but it would cause GT350/R sales (where the dealers are asking for an ADM) to fall to zero and all the customers would buy ZL1s. Since that hasn't happened there are some people who prefer the GT350/R over the ZL1 - even if they have to pay more/negotiate harder/shop longer to find the GT350/R.

For a same track, same day comparrison:

http://www.motortrend.com/cars/ford/mustang/2017/2017-chevrolet-camaro-zl1-vs-2017-ford-mustang-shelby-gt350r-review/

GT350R: 3713 lbs
SS 1LE: 3746 lbs
SS ZL1: 3912 lbs (ouch, that's fully loaded Mustang GT Premium territory!)

The ZL1 boasts a 125 HP advantage and ran a 1:27.9 second lap time. The GT350R ran a 1:28.29 second lap time. Difference: 0.39 seconds.

Looks like willow springs is NOT a track where the ZL1 can leverage it's massive 125 HP advantage.

Yet the 2.5 mile long Lighting Lap in the C&D tests (I know, they were not the same days, so the results are some what incomparable, but give us a general idea), we have the following times:

SS 1LE: 2:54.8 seconds
GT350R: 2:51.8 seconds (3 seconds faster but has a substantial 70 HP advantage)
SS ZL1: 2:45.7 seconds (6.1 seconds fast but has a very substantial 125 HP advantage, near double the power advantage over the GT350R, nearly double the time difference)

Ratios:
3 sec / 70 hp = 0.043 sec / hp.
6.1 sec / 125 hp = 0.049 sec / hp

Gee golly, the cars making more power are proportionally faster and in similar configurations are nearly identical in weight and actual physical proportions. They are so close, they are only an inch or two apart in most dimensions. What a surprise that they run similar times when configured for actual track duty.

I think the reality is the two chassis architectures are nearly identical in weight. It all comes down to tires, driver, power and suspension tuning. Ford simply does not set up the regular GT's or GT PP's like the 1LE. Not even close. The regular GT is set up like a Fusion Sedan, it's pure grand touring with a reasonably powerful engine.

The Performance Package GT's are set up like a standard 1/2SS, but the older 2015-2017's have an average power deficit of about 23~30 hp if you do an area compare of their power bands (to the wheels) and are a little heavier to boot (about 60~70 lbs if you get a Performance Package only and not a Premium, the clock in around 3780 lbs).

That's what people want, a Grand Touring car and that's why Ford sells them set up like the GT's name sake and not the Super Sport track car, but the GT has the same potential if you want to blend the two and you can do it under warranty.

Ford makes the sales numbers on run of the mill slush box GT's, for those wanting a street performance car, they have Performance Package. For those wanting more of an actual track car, they have Ford Performance factory upgrades which are covered by warranty when installed by a dealership.

I did the Power Pack 2 in my GT and it really brought the 5.0 to life.

2018+'s make a little more average power than the LT1 6.2 or a Power Pack 2 2015-2017, maybe slightly less than a Power Pack 3 2015-2017 5.0. The 2015-2017's with a Power Pack 2 make nearly identical power (just a hair more, 5~7 hp on average) to the LT1 6.2 just shifted 500 rpm higher. With the SS you get as much as they can give you out of the box. With the GT, you get about 90~95% out of the box. If you care about that last couple percent, pay for the factory upgrades. GM also offers factory upgrades for the SS as well, just not as many.

If you don't option the crap out of a GT, weights are within 50 lbs. So it comes down to driver, suspension tuning and tires. That's what the after market is for. Sky is the limit!

The fastest track cars, SS or GT alike are not bone stock factory cars. The fastest of each are going to be highly modified from their factory setups, but you can generally get the GT's cheaper because there are quite a few more of them, but you also have to do more to them because they are just not set up like the SS from the factory.

Ford did build in a very substantial potential however. The most critical areas of design are there as a foundation, it's just buried in soft rubber bushings and very anemic engine tuning.

So do you want a car that's great out of the box and just drive it as is or do you want to make it your own creation and tailor it to your particular applications? Drag, Auto X and HDPE all have very different requirements and the fastest cars in each category are set up very differently of any factory configuration in either a GT or SS.

 

[Hack]

Yet the 2.5 mile long Lighting Lap in the C&D tests (I know, they were not the same days, so the results are some what incomparable, but give us a general idea), we have the following times:

SS 1LE: 2:54.8 seconds
GT350R: 2:51.8 seconds (3 seconds faster but has a substantial 70 HP advantage)
SS ZL1: 2:45.7 seconds (6.1 seconds fast but has a very substantial 125 HP advantage, near double the power advantage over the GT350R, nearly double the time difference)

Well written post and I agree with a lot of what you said, but IMO you shouldn't use the lightning lap numbers for anything. From what I understand, not only are the cars driven on different days, but also by different people.

 

[w3rkn]

Ditto. Thanks for the data and illustrations. It puts a good visual on engine/drivertrain performance.

 

[BmacIL]

For a same track, same day comparrison:

http://www.motortrend.com/cars/ford/mustang/2017/2017-chevrolet-camaro-zl1-vs-2017-ford-mustang-shelby-gt350r-review/

GT350R: 3713 lbs
SS 1LE: 3746 lbs
SS ZL1: 3912 lbs (ouch, that's fully loaded Mustang GT Premium territory!)

The ZL1 boasts a 125 HP advantage and ran a 1:27.9 second lap time. The GT350R ran a 1:28.29 second lap time. Difference: 0.39 seconds.

Looks like willow springs is NOT a track where the ZL1 can leverage it's massive 125 HP advantage.

Yet the 2.5 mile long Lighting Lap in the C&D tests (I know, they were not the same days, so the results are some what incomparable, but give us a general idea), we have the following times:

SS 1LE: 2:54.8 seconds
GT350R: 2:51.8 seconds (3 seconds faster but has a substantial 70 HP advantage)
SS ZL1: 2:45.7 seconds (6.1 seconds fast but has a very substantial 125 HP advantage, near double the power advantage over the GT350R, nearly double the time difference)

Ratios:
3 sec / 70 hp = 0.043 sec / hp.
6.1 sec / 125 hp = 0.049 sec / hp

Gee golly, the cars making more power are proportionally faster and in similar configurations are nearly identical in weight and actual physical proportions. They are so close, they are only an inch or two apart in most dimensions. What a surprise that they run similar times when configured for actual track duty.

I think the reality is the two chassis architectures are nearly identical in weight. It all comes down to tires, driver, power and suspension tuning. Ford simply does not set up the regular GT's or GT PP's like the 1LE. Not even close. The regular GT is set up like a Fusion Sedan, it's pure grand touring with a reasonably powerful engine.

The Performance Package GT's are set up like a standard 1/2SS, but the older 2015-2017's have an average power deficit of about 23~30 hp if you do an area compare of their power bands (to the wheels) and are a little heavier to boot (about 60~70 lbs if you get a Performance Package only and not a Premium, the clock in around 3780 lbs).

That's what people want, a Grand Touring car and that's why Ford sells them set up like the GT's name sake and not the Super Sport track car, but the GT has the same potential if you want to blend the two and you can do it under warranty.

Ford makes the sales numbers on run of the mill slush box GT's, for those wanting a street performance car, they have Performance Package. For those wanting more of an actual track car, they have Ford Performance factory upgrades which are covered by warranty when installed by a dealership.

I did the Power Pack 2 in my GT and it really brought the 5.0 to life.

2018+'s make a little more average power than the LT1 6.2 or a Power Pack 2 2015-2017, maybe slightly less than a Power Pack 3 2015-2017 5.0. The 2015-2017's with a Power Pack 2 make nearly identical power (just a hair more, 5~7 hp on average) to the LT1 6.2 just shifted 500 rpm higher. With the SS you get as much as they can give you out of the box. With the GT, you get about 90~95% out of the box. If you care about that last couple percent, pay for the factory upgrades. GM also offers factory upgrades for the SS as well, just not as many.

If you don't option the crap out of a GT, weights are within 50 lbs. So it comes down to driver, suspension tuning and tires. That's what the after market is for. Sky is the limit!

The fastest track cars, SS or GT alike are not bone stock factory cars. The fastest of each are going to be highly modified from their factory setups, but you can generally get the GT's cheaper because there are quite a few more of them, but you also have to do more to them because they are just not set up like the SS from the factory.

Ford did build in a very substantial potential however. The most critical areas of design are there as a foundation, it's just buried in soft rubber bushings and very anemic engine tuning.

So do you want a car that's great out of the box and just drive it as is or do you want to make it your own creation and tailor it to your particular applications? Drag, Auto X and HDPE all have very different requirements and the fastest cars in each category are set up very differently of any factory configuration in either a GT or SS.

Nice analysis. How do you like the new catback?

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