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Cooled seats not cooling

GT Pony

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That 118 degree reading on the back side of the seat would confirm that indeed the electric fan motor is heating up the seat itself and heat soaking the lumbar area. :(
As FeedtheNeed mentioned, it could be that backs were that hot because the car heat soaked in the sun all day long before the test.

The best way to do this test is on cloudy day, or in the garage with the door open so the interior is basically at a cooler ambient temperature. Then fire up the car and turn the seats to full cool and do the IR thermometer test. I have an IR thermometer, so may conduct this test as I described above to see what numbers I get.

I don't think the power from just a little muffin fan is going to heat the seat leather to 118 deg F if there is no active cooling going on with the seat back "cooling unit".

I'd still like to hear from the Ford Rep is there really is an active cooling system built into that fan unit on the seat back. If not, then it's only a recirculation fan to blow air through the perforated leather on the seat back. IMO, it doesn't make sense to have an active cooler in the seat bottom and not in the back. :doh:
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As FeedtheNeed mentioned, it could be that backs were that hot because the car heat soaked in the sun all day long before the test.
Wouldn't that be why you would want to turn on the cooled seatrs? Heat soak? I find that my seatbacks get hot after a day in the sun at work. So when I leave, the seat back & bottom are approximately the same temperature (buttmometer). The bottom will cool off, but at times the back will get hotter.
 

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I too have noticed the seat back getting noticeably warm with the seat cooling feature turned on. I did a little digging on the Ford parts website and found the attached illustration (also can be seen in post #102 here).

Part 19N550A is listed as:

Seat Vent
With Drivers Heated And Cooled Seat With Pass Heated And Cooled Seat Sports Front Seat North American Markets ; For Seat Back, RH/LH

Part 19N550B is listed as:

Seat Vent
With Drivers Heated And Cooled Seat With Pass Heated And Cooled Seat Sports Front Seat North American Markets ; For Seat Cushion, RH/LH

From these sources, I conclude that there are indeed two separate air circulating mechanisms in our ventilated seats: one for the back and one for the cushion.

With regard to the parts actually heating and cooling the seats, others have suggested thermoelectric (Peltier effect) devices being used, which seems logical from a design and packaging perspective. If the seat coolers / heaters do use the Peltier effect, they would switch between heating and cooling functions simply by reversing the polarity of the voltage applied across them. If the seat back element is getting hot on the wrong side due to incorrect connection of its thermoelectric device, then the seat back should feel cool when the heat setting is used. Sounds like some more experiments are in order! :)
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FeedtheNeed

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Wouldn't that be why you would want to turn on the cooled seatrs? Heat soak? I find that my seatbacks get hot after a day in the sun at work. So when I leave, the seat back & bottom are approximately the same temperature (buttmometer). The bottom will cool off, but at times the back will get hotter.
That is exactly on the money and my original complaint. I got working as intended the first time, giving them the chance to look at it.

Now, I have better information and I will be taking it back to service next week being escalated and see what shakes out. If I don't like that answer, I'll try another local dealer. If I still don't like that answer, I'm not sure what the next step is.

Whatever the case is, I don't believe I received the cooled seats I thought I purchased and I won't stop until I'm satisfied or Ford says too bad.
 

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I just went on a quick 10 minute run to test the "cooled" seat.

Weather is completely overcast, no sun whatsoever, 65 degrees outside. Car has been sitting in the garage for over 24 hours, not heat soaked in the least.

Started it up. Hit the driver "cooled" seat, 3 lights, hi fans, hear lower and upper fans running. Windows up, vent on only, NO AC. Vent set to blow out the dash only. Drove around for 10 minutes. Pulled back into cool garage. Lower seat was coolish, especially towards the front. Back of seat was probably about body temperature except for the 2nd panel from the bottom. This one was noticeably warmer, above body temperature. This is the same area where the lumbar support pushes out. (I have mine all the way retracted as I don't like its feel). I feel the back of the seat. Exactly behind where the 2nd panel from the bottom is is noticeably warmer than the rest of the back of the seat. I am guessing this is where the fan is located. I need to grab my laser/IR thermometer from work but I'd be willing to bet the back of the seat at that area was at least 110 or more degrees. Whether this is from a Peltier unit or just from the fan motor giving off heat who knows. Whatever the case if this is normal functioning color me unimpressed. :(
 

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I too have noticed the seat back getting noticeably warm with the seat cooling feature turned on. I did a little digging on the Ford parts website and found the following illustration (also can be seen in post #102 here) :



Part 19N550A is listed as:

Seat Vent
With Drivers Heated And Cooled Seat With Pass Heated And Cooled Seat Sports Front Seat North American Markets ; For Seat Back, RH/LH

Part 19N550B is listed as:

Seat Vent
With Drivers Heated And Cooled Seat With Pass Heated And Cooled Seat Sports Front Seat North American Markets ; For Seat Cushion, RH/LH

From these sources, I conclude that there are indeed two separate air circulating mechanisms in our ventilated seats: one for the back and one for the cushion.

With regard to the parts actually heating and cooling the seats, others have suggested thermoelectric (Peltier effect) devices being used, which seems logical from a design and packaging perspective. If the seat coolers / heaters do use the Peltier effect, they would switch between heating and cooling functions simply by reversing the polarity of the voltage applied across them. If the seat back element is getting hot on the wrong side due to incorrect connection of its thermoelectric device, then the seat back should feel cool when the heat setting is used. Sounds like some more experiments are in order! :)
That is absolutely shocking. I can't believe these work so poorly and there's even a dedicated fan for the back? Someone at Ford should be fired for this, and they damn sure need to recall these cars and fix these seats. Completely unacceptable.
 

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That is absolutely shocking. I can't believe these work so poorly and there's even a dedicated fan for the back? Someone at Ford should be fired for this, and they damn sure need to recall these cars and fix these seats. Completely unacceptable.
If its normal operational parameters there will be nothing to "fix". I'm starting to wonder if the seat back would be cooler with just leaving the "cooled" seat off. I also wonder if it would be possible to pull the connector to the back seat fan and leave it off and let the bottom fan/unit cool. If I would have known these would have functioned like this beforehand I may have ordered the Recaro seats. Hindsight is 20/20 I guess.
 

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If the back of the seat actually gets hotter (or doesn't cool at all) with the seat coolers on, then there is definitely a problem with the cooler unit in the back. Yes, I know that's basic grass roots logic that everyone already knows, but there should be no reason the back don't work like the bottoms unless something is messed up with the design and/or the hardware (ie, fan & cooler/heater unit). IMO, it makes sense that the bottom and back units would function and perform the same - why would cooled seats even be purposely designed to not have an active cooling unit in the back?

Nobody here has ever said they feel the bottom get hotter (or not cool at all) with the cooled seats on. I would assume that IF the back unit has a cooler unit (like the seat bottom), that the seat back should run cool all the time just like the bottom. There is definitely lack of performance from the seat back.

Ford engineering really needs to look at this issue and give us an answer on why the backs don't function like the bottoms. IMO, the dealerships won't know jack about this issue. I smell a TSB possibly coming out on this issue as summer approaches and more people start complaining about their cooled seat performance. :doh:
 

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If its normal operational parameters there will be nothing to "fix".
Well that's Ford's claim so far.

"It doesn't work at all, but that's how we designed it, so sod off."

I wish this tactic would work for me at my job. :rolleyes:
 

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Well that's Ford's claim so far.

"It doesn't work at all, but that's how we designed it, so sod off."

I wish this tactic would work for me at my job. :rolleyes:
Me too. I just don't want to waste my time take it into the dealership and this is what they say. It is a poor design in my estimation. I never should have used the cooled seats in my Dad's Sierra Denali. It gave me unrealistic expectations. They get your butt and back nice and cold. I think I'd almost be embarrassed to let him use them in my Mustang. :(
 

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Me too. I just don't want to waste my time take it into the dealership and this is what they say. It is a poor design in my estimation. I never should have used the cooled seats in my Dad's Sierra Denali. It gave me unrealistic expectations. They get your butt and back nice and cold. I think I'd almost be embarrassed to let him use them in my Mustang. :(
Exactly. I was expecting the kind of performance that I experienced in the FORD TAURUS that worked so well. The literature said "cooled seat" - not "cooled seat bottom with heated back!" We didn't get what we paid for!

Mine is in the shop as I write this, and I asked them to look into it again, since it's actually getting hot now that we have warmer weather. I have no reason to believe they won't tell me to sod off once again.
 

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I experimented with the seats on the way home from work a couple of hours ago. The car was parked in the shade, and was around 80F inside when I got in. Climate control was set to 75F for both zones when the car was started. The seats felt neither warm nor cool to the touch. I performed the following casual tests and observations:

  • Ran the seat coolers on full power for about 5 minutes. As expected, the bottoms of both seats became cool to the touch, while the backs didn't seem to change in temperature.
  • Ran the seat heaters on full power for about 3 minutes. The bottoms and backs got noticeably warm. The sound of the fans in the seat vent components was also intermittent rather than constant.
  • Switched back to full power cooling for the remainder of the trip (about 20 minutes). Once again, the bottoms of both seats got cool. The driver seat back became noticeable warm, while the passenger seat back (unoccupied) remained approximately ambient temperature.

If the seats do indeed use Peltier effect devices for both cooling and heating functions, they appear to be wired correctly, as the heat function works normally.

I theorize that the problem could be related to airflow restriction around the seat back ventilator unit. If the Peltier device gets heat soaked, it can't cool past a certain point and instead heats up because it can't reject any more heat from the other side. This could explain why the bottom works normally (more airflow from the open bottom of the seat) while the seat back is relatively sealed off on the back side.

I'm not quite motivated enough to disassemble my seats to find out if that's the issue here. :(
 

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I experimented with the seats on the way home from work a couple of hours ago. The car was parked in the shade, and was around 80F inside when I got in. Climate control was set to 75F for both zones when the car was started. The seats felt neither warm nor cool to the touch. I performed the following casual tests and observations:

  • Ran the seat coolers on full power for about 5 minutes. As expected, the bottoms of both seats became cool to the touch, while the backs didn't seem to change in temperature.
  • Ran the seat heaters on full power for about 3 minutes. The bottoms and backs got noticeably warm. The sound of the fans in the seat vent components was also intermittent rather than constant.
  • Switched back to full power cooling for the remainder of the trip (about 20 minutes). Once again, the bottoms of both seats got cool. The driver seat back became noticeable warm, while the passenger seat back (unoccupied) remained approximately ambient temperature.

If the seats do indeed use Peltier effect devices for both cooling and heating functions, they appear to be wired correctly, as the heat function works normally.

I theorize that the problem could be related to airflow restriction around the seat back ventilator unit. If the Peltier device gets heat soaked, it can't cool past a certain point and instead heats up because it can't reject any more heat from the other side. This could explain why the bottom works normally (more airflow from the open bottom of the seat) while the seat back is relatively sealed off on the back side.

I'm not quite motivated enough to disassemble my seats to find out if that's the issue here. :(
Good points.

Who wants to drill holes/vents into their seat backs to try this out? ;)

I'm starting to think this could be solved if Ford offered a seat back that had vents or slots in it around where the upper fan is located that would allow it to pull through technically "cooler" ambient air rather than try to push trapped and warmed air through the seat. Maybe I need to drop this "wish" to American Muscle when they ask for ideas for mods. A vented or louvered plastic seatback that would replace the blocked off flat rear one. I'm sure Ford didn't want to bother with it worrying about back seat passengers but I'd buy one in a heartbeat if it were offered aftermarket.
 

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Out of curiosity I checked this out…

If you feel/press on the backs of the seats and the fronts at the same time you fan feel the fan unit in the seat back. It is like the picture shown, it is small (about 4 inches in diameter maybe) and I really can't tell if has a Peltier unit attached to it or not. It really just seems like a small fan if you ask me.

Now here's the kicker, the back of the seats has perforations/holes in them to allow air to flow through BUT ONLY FOR THE UPPER HALF/PART OF THE SEAT. The perforations don't make it down to where the fan is located. In fact the upper seat fan is covered on the back of the seat by a solid piece of fabric AND A THICK PIECE OF VINYL FOR THE MAP POCKET. In other words the fan needs to sit higher or the the perforations need to extend lower in order for the fan to pull through ambient air more efficiently. This could very well explain why when tested by another member the 2nd panel from the bottom on the seatbacks is warmer and why it was tested at 118 degrees on the seat back itself.

Whatever the case it is a poor design. If you want air flow you don't block off the straight pathway of air to a fan. I'm not a brave enough man to rip off the map pocket and cut holes into the fabric beneath it just to let the upper fan have better access to ambient air and "cool" the seat better. I also think if you could raise that fan unit in the seat back just 3 to 4 inches higher it would align with the perforations and work more efficiently as well.

Feel around on your seats and see if yours are that way. Let me know if you find the same. :)
 

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All good inputs in that last 3 posts. I wonder if you could rig up some kind of fan & duct that would blow cabin air up inside the back of the seat just to see if the Peltier/Fan unit doesn't heat soak and put out warm air. If you could somehow get slow flow of cabin air up in the back for the fan to blow through the heat exchange it might make the back work like the bottom and stay cool.
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