BBQ Tick After Oil Change...

[CEHollier]

The ticking will also come and go with the AC on and off ... so slight changes in engine load can cause it to appear or not. Too much rod side clearance like shown in the the video I linked to in post #349 above can do that.

The first day I noticed the tick the AC on/off was true. I would cut the AC on and it ticked. Cut it off and it stopped. A few weeks/month later cutting the AC off and it ticked though less than on.

Sponsored

 

[bl4d3runn3r]

Are we still talking about the BBQ tick here?

 

[choate]

On the 1st Gens the AC stretchy belt I think is what Ford called it was the sound for some

 

[TheLion]

Anyone try going back to MC 5W-20 semi-syn? I noticed that with snythetic oils my 5.0 ticks a bit for the first few thousand miles. It's definitely audible at low speed in the 1k~2k RPM range. Sounds to me like lash adjuster tick, but it could very well be play in the bottom end and synthetics typically have a lower viscosity as room temp than semi-synthetics do. I noticed this phenomenon with both Penzoil Ultra Platinum 5W-20 and Mobil 1 Advanced Synthetic 5W-20. So here's what I did as a simple test:

Oil change 1: 5,600 miles done by dealer the car was traded in at, MC 5W-20 semi-syn and MC FL500-S OE filter. No audible ticking except maybe when right next to a wall, windows down and music off. Does make a chuffing sound some times when it settles into a bit of an eloping idle. Stock ECU calibration.

Oil Change 2: 10,000 miles done by me, Penzoil Ultra Platinum 5W-20 and MC FL500-S OE filter. Has some pronounced ticking that is rythmic with the engine, however above 2,500ish RPM it's drowned out by exhaust and normal engine noise (intake vacuum noise is louder by comparison). Also the ticking became less pronounced as the miles piled on and by 15,000 miles I couldn't tell the difference between PUP and MC oils.

Oil Change 3: 15,000 miles done by me, MC 5W-20 Semi-syn and MC FL500-S OE filter. At first it was a bit clanky, but nothing I would say out of the ordinary. Quieted down again as miles piled on the oil and was identical to when I first purchased the car.

Oil Change 4: 20,000 miles done by me, Mobil 1 5W-20 Advanced Synthetic (their new Dexos 1 Gen 2 formula). Similar to PUP 5W-20. I can hear some pronounced ticking at idle and under load when starting (1,500 to 2,500 RPM range), but it fades away as load and RPM increase and can no longer be heard above 3,000 ish rpm. I hot dogged the car pretty good this morning for 10 minutes on back roads with lots of WOT. Then pulled up to a stop sign and no change. Still sounds the same, bit of a tick or a sharp tap at low RPM when starting, but nothing super loud. Also did some 50% throttle at low RPM to see if there was any knocking in 5th gear (around 2,000 RPM) and absolutely no ticking or knocking. It's completely smooth and quiet under higher loads even at low RPM.

From all of my experiences the 5.0 seems sensitive to oil properties, even among 5W-20 oils. I've read a few posts of OP's even using MC 5W-20 Full Synthetic, Ford's own oil, and noticing increased engine clatter. It's a thin aluminum block with 32 valves, 32 hydraulic lash adjusters, 2 hydraulic timing chain tensioners and 4 hydraulic mid-lock cam phasors. The 5.0 is just a noisy engine and if you think the 5.0 is clanky, try driving a 2.3L ecoboost...I swore that thing was going to grenade 50% of the time. But when I traded it in at 36k miles it was just clanking away without issues. It was just a noisy engine and that HPFP made some very erratic sounding knocks.

I think if we really want to figure out what the issues are and what noises are normal and what noises are not, we need to collect examples from those who have had their short block replaced or actually had a problem diagnosed. If I ever have any major issues I'll be sure to give everyone as much details as I can, but so far it's been bullet proof. Yah it's noisier with synthetic oils, I am 100% certain on that, I get some ticking after first change that eventually dies down, but so far I've not had any abnormal behavior, no abnormal oil consumption, no CEL (I now have had the Power Pack 2 on it since 17,000 miles), makes great power very consistently (added a catch can that fixed some power fade that would occur after 5~7+ minutes of sustained heavy throttle).

I've really beat on this car pretty hard, harder than I did even my Ecoboost or any other car I've owned and so far it's been great other than that darn diff bolt that I sheared (now fixed).

BTW Ford is still using the AC stretchy belt. Mine does not have a tensioner. Might also be responsible for some of the intermittent noises we hear, so you can add that to the plethora of tick / knock noise sources that are not harmful.

What makes this all even more confusing is that some people have had their short blocks replaced but never reported what the actual cause was found to be....and everybody hears noises and interprets them differently.

 

[IronG]

Nice going Lion. Finally someone with a scientific approach to a problem. You would need to create a matrix of 2015- 2019 mustangs down the left side with the "noises" at the top. In the matrix you could put in the notes from what was analyzed either from the owner or a Ford tech on what is or could be the cause of the noise. Other notes like mods, build date, auto, MT, how the engine was broken in etc could be provided in a "additional notes" column.

Anyway to step off the space elevator for a minute, I too would love to see what Ford came up with for the causes when replacing the engines. That really would help to provide some confirmation (or not) to any of the current noises people are hearing. Really though doing any of this "scientific" stuff will just organize what people purport with hearing noises from their engines, however only from Ford will we hear what exactly is or isn't a cause for alarm. It may make some people more at ease though. For my part I am not worried that there is anything widespread (I will have mine early next year). Based on this site and a couple others I look at (and youtube) it seems to be just the unfortunate % of cars that are doomed from the start.

I do feel bad for those that have experienced moderate to severe engine problems as it is no fun in any way shape or form. I hope for those in are in that lot with issues can be resolved quickly so you can go back to just enjoying the car for what it is, a pretty darn fun cheap set of wheels.

 

[bl4d3runn3r]

Second day after liqui moly ceratec. The BBQ tick is gone. Engine sounds like it should now. So I assume the tick is lubrication issue.

 

[kenand1988]

Second day after liqui moly ceratec. The BBQ tick is gone. Engine sounds like it should now. So I assume the tick is lubrication issue.

I'll remember this for if the new engine ticks

 

[GT Pony]

Anyway to step off the space elevator for a minute, I too would love to see what Ford came up with for the causes when replacing the engines. That really would help to provide some confirmation (or not) to any of the current noises people are hearing. Really though doing any of this "scientific" stuff will just organize what people purport with hearing noises from their engines, however only from Ford will we hear what exactly is or isn't a cause for alarm.

Of course these engines make some normal noises while running ... every engine does to some degree. But there are videos posted where it's pretty obvious that the ticking is not normal, and it doesn't happen on every Coyote. That's what the 'BBQ Tick' is ... I wouldn't call it a normal noise. I've never heard any other engine start off as quiet running, and then develop a random ticking noise and then it's chalked up as being normal.

I'd say rod side clearance like shown in the video linked below would be cause for alarm - and it could very well be the cause to the BBQ Tick. The max rod side-to side clearance spec is 0.5 mm (0.020") ... I'd say that's way past 0.5 mm of side-to-side movement on those two rods. Ford approves short block replacement with a report from dealerships that there's an abnormal ticking noise. Ford must know something we don't ... otherwise they wouldn't warranty short blocks without each and every engine being torn into like this one to verify what the ticking noise is caused by.

https://www.mustang6g.com/forums/threads/2016-mustang-gt-ticking-issue.107292/page-4#post-2322571

 

[TheLion]

No performance cars are immune to defects. There are horror stories with the Corvettes (one guy I found on youtube had his whole top end replaced not once but twice and still his LT1 powered vett was making a nasty knocking noise), Camaros (there's youtube videos of a bone stock SS with a spun bearing), Chargers, Challengers, BMW M3's, Mercedes AMG's...etc. The list goes on. My parents have a 2015 F-150 Lariate with the 5.0 and they have around 40k miles, not a single issue and they frequently during summer months tow a 5,500 lb 8 person camper 2-3 hours to camp grounds. They also plow with it their 1/4 mile long gravel driveway (back in the woods). My step dad just runs MC 5W-20 semi-synthetic and the factory FL500-S filter as that's what's speced from the factory.

I think once you get past 36k miles you can have reasonable confidence that your past the infant mortality stage of the car. Major defects in manufacture or even design are most likely to have already caused catastrophic failure. My advice however is to run the car hard (but maintain it well) during that time after the initial 1,000 mile break in for seating the piston rings (during which you need to keep revs below 5,000, avoid low RPM loading and vary the revs as much as possible). I have no issues running mine hard when it's safe to do so, so far I'm at a little over 20k miles and everything is mechanical sound. Is it BMW quite? Heck now, it's got plenty of clank, rattles and even thuds or knocks to it, but it's a 465 HP sports car I paid only $27k for with a full cat back exhaust already on it and 100k factory power train warranty. I can live with some noise if it's reliable and performs consistently and is comfortable to ride in otherwise. Actually I still really like it for the Grand Touring aspect, its a good dual purpose car.

Time will tell but the only figure I've ever heard quoted regarding the failure rate of the new 5.0 (since it was introduced in 2011) was 0.5% total for both F-150's and Mustang GT's which is pretty darn low. I believe that figure also include non-catastrophic failures that can be repaired, like a bad cam phasor or leaking head gasket etc.

 

[TheLion]

Of course these engines make some normal noises while running ... every engine does to some degree. But there are videos posted where it's pretty obvious that the ticking is not normal, and it doesn't happen on every Coyote. That's what the 'BBQ Tick' is ... I wouldn't call it a normal noise. I've never heard any other engine start off as quiet running, and then develop a random ticking noise and then it's chalked up as being normal.

I'd say rod side clearance like shown in the video linked below would be cause for alarm - and it could very well be the cause to the BBQ Tick. The max rod side-to side clearance spec is 0.5 mm (0.020") ... I'd say that's way past 0.5 mm of side-to-side movement on those two rods. Ford approves short block replacement with a report from dealerships that there's an abnormal ticking noise. Ford must know something we don't ... otherwise they wouldn't warranty short blocks without each and every engine being torn into like this one to verify what the ticking noise is caused by.

https://www.mustang6g.com/forums/threads/2016-mustang-gt-ticking-issue.107292/page-4#post-2322571

I absolutely agree. The best evidence of the BBQ tick, which sounds a heck of a lot like a video I saw of some one who was definitively diagnosed with a spun bearing and had a short block replaced under warranty (low mileage, I think under 5k), is this somewhat random almost sharp tapping sound from the bottom end. To me it sounds more like a tap than a tick, it's lower in frequency and deeper in tone to my ears. Either a spun bearing or rod side to side clearance issues could result in the same noise as it's play in the bearings that shouldn't be there. The bearing should stay centered around the crank shaft due to hydraulic pressure.

I wonder how many people are running non Ford OE oil filters. Many after market oil filters do NOT have anti-drain back valves. I wonder if that could cause highly accelerated wear on the bearings during cold starts. The whole purpose of the anti-drain back valve is to minimize engine wear by making sure the oil pump has oi in it's lines so it can pressurize immediately. Could it be that the pumps are running dry for short periods of time? Causing airation of the oil? That could certainly cause a very early death! But it's only a theory baring it's not a mfg. defect.

Unlike cam lobes and timing chains / guides, rod bearings operate on hydraulic pressure, not film strength of the oil. Rod bearings are hydraulic bearings and if there is too little hydraulic pressure then the fluid barrier collapses and you have metal to metal contact. There's multiple reasons this can happen:

1. low oil pressure from the pump due to heating or flow restrictions or pump damage or even excessive airation of the oil (aka heavy foaming)
2. Rod bearing oil journal flow limits at certain RPM range causing excessive heat and thus loss of pressure
3. Clearance issues due to either manufacturing errors or design errors (more expansion than intended could lead to starvation as clearances dwindle, or the opposite, clearances are too large and there's not adequate hydraulic pressure).

It seems that in every video I've seen BBQ tick tracks up and down with RPM, it's always there and it can be intermittent (most cases) where it doesn't tick audibly with every rotation, it may tick once or twice in a row then be silent for a few rotations then tick again. Excessive bottom end play could certainly cause that.

But those that do have that issue seem to constitute a pretty small percentage of total mustang's sold...we have probably what 25~50 people on this entire forum out of thousands over several years (some are not stock either)? And you always have a much higher concentration of people with issues that go on forums for that very reason. Out of actual Mustang owners it's minuscule. Even more interestingly, I don't recall any that have actually let go, as in a rod through the side of the block which is the typical failure mode for the 2.3L ecoboost.

I don't think this is a design flaw. I think it's a small percentage of manufacturing defects and Ford is well aware of the symptoms of such a defect. That's why they simple replace the short block. The test engines during development go through some incredible abuse, if it was a design flaw as opposed to a manufacturing issue, I'm pretty sure that running the 5.0 at 6,500 RPM for 3,000 hours straight, then doing days of thermal shocking followed by more brutal testing would reveal some issues. And at the end of all that the engine has to be ready to do it all again, it can't be on it's last leg. That's far more brutal than any person on this forum could subject their car to, at least NA.

 

[IronG]

Of course these engines make some normal noises while running ... every engine does to some degree. But there are videos posted where it's pretty obvious that the ticking is not normal, and it doesn't happen on every Coyote. That's what the 'BBQ Tick' is ... I wouldn't call it a normal noise. I've never heard any other engine start off as quiet running, and then develop a random ticking noise and then it's chalked up as being normal.

I'd say rod side clearance like shown in the video linked below would be cause for alarm - and it could very well be the cause to the BBQ Tick. The max rod side-to side clearance spec is 0.5 mm (0.020") ... I'd say that's way past 0.5 mm of side-to-side movement on those two rods. Ford approves short block replacement with a report from dealerships that there's an abnormal ticking noise. Ford must know something we don't ... otherwise they wouldn't warranty short blocks without each and every engine being torn into like this one to verify what the ticking noise is caused by.

https://www.mustang6g.com/forums/threads/2016-mustang-gt-ticking-issue.107292/page-4#post-2322571

I think you are both right and wrong. Right that there is a noise some people hear (maybe it is on all and only some really notice it?), however there has been no correlation to it and engine replacement. Only hyperbole from those that have had an engine replacement and those waiting for a failure - that may never happen. How many engine replacements have there been vs the number of Coyotes out there? Not sure that info exists to be able to make any type of assertion that it is beyond expected failure rates. It also does not show that it is above either. So on this point to me it is meaningless to dwell on it. As for the video, it was 8 seconds of someone moving a part to make a noise. Not sure if you have ever torn down an engine, but through the process you can create all kinds of movement and noises. I do see it being a data point, but the context is vague at best.

Anyway, it should be expected when coming to an enthusiast site that problems of any kind are going to seem bigger than they are. Many people on this site seem to drive their car harder than most and are willing to even talk about them in general. Certainly there are cases where a problem brought up on a site like this have been a major issue that required a fix (those normally become visible outside sites like these), but to me this one has not reached that point. Hey if it does turn out to be a major flaw, Ford is going to pay the price big time. Very costly not just in repairs, but future sales and even possible legal implications. Let's hope for everyone's sake it does not come to that.

 

[GT Pony]

Unlike cam lobes and timing chains / guides, rod bearings operate on hydraulic pressure, not film strength of the oil. Rod bearings are hydraulic bearings and if there is too little hydraulic pressure then the fluid barrier collapses and you have metal to metal contact. There's multiple reasons this can happen: 1. low oil pressure from the pump due to heating or flow restrictions or pump damage 2. Rod bearing oil journal limits at certain RPM range 3. Clearance issues due to either manufacturing errors or design errors (more expansion than intended could lead to starvation as clearances dwindle, or the opposite, clearances are too large and there's not adequate hydraulic pressure).

Agreed with most of what you said, but as far as journal bearings go, the oil pressure supplied by the oil pump only ensures a good supply of oil volume to the bearings, it really doesn't add much of anything to keeping the parts separated - I'm assuming you're referring to the "hydraulic pressure" as the oil pressure produced by the oil pump.

A journal bearing operates in the hydrodynamic realm once it starts rotating - and the resulting oil "wedge" is what does all the protection. The most wear is done when the bearing is starting from zero movement during a start-up, but once moving there will be a hydrodynamic film of oil keeping the metal-to-metal contact from happening. The minimum oil film thickness between the bearing and the journal is dependent on all kinds of parameters ... and oil viscosity is one of those major parameters. That's why thicker oil will always protect journal bearings better because it results in a thicker oil film between the parts.

When the "fluid barrier" (the hydrodynamic oil film) "collapses" it's not due to "too little hydraulic (oil pump?) pressure unless there is an actual lack of oil volume supply. It "collapses" (ie, there is metal-to-metal contact) because the oil viscosity has become too low inside the bearing (due to a thin starting viscosity and then the added heat inside the bearing from shearing), and the oil film thickness in the bearing has then reduced to the point where metal-to-metal contact starts to occur.

Maybe it's just a use of terminology thing ... but I just wanted to clarify that the actual pressure you see on the oil pressure gauge really doesn't add any real "hydraulic pressure" to the journal bearings ... that's 99.9% done by the incompressibility of the oil film in the hydrodynamic oil wedge inside the bearing itself due to the bearing rotating. Good oil pressure just means there's a good supply of oil volume, and obviously if the supply of oil is inadequate the bearing can't maintain it's natural hydrodynamic film of protection and damage will happen.

 

[GT Pony]

I think you are both right and wrong. Right that there is a noise some people hear (maybe it is on all and only some really notice it?), however there has been no correlation to it and engine replacement. Only hyperbole from those that have had an engine replacement and those waiting for a failure - that may never happen.

Why is Ford authorizing short block replacements based on obvious cases of the engine having this characteristic ticking? Ford is very stringent on what they approve or not in terms of warranty work. Every engine replacement has to be approved by Ford ... dealerships just can't do it and expect compensation without per-approval from Ford.

How many engine replacements have there been vs the number of Coyotes out there? Not sure that info exists to be able to make any type of assertion that it is beyond expected failure rates. It also does not show that it is above either. So on this point to me it is meaningless to dwell on it. As for the video, it was 8 seconds of someone moving a part to make a noise. Not sure if you have ever torn down an engine, but through the process you can create all kinds of movement and noises. I do see it being a data point, but the context is vague at best.

There have actually been quite a few members here who have had an engine or short block replaced because of this ticking noise - and some without Ford even telling the dealer to tear the engine down first to look for the cause. I don't think it really matters how many replacements have been done vs how many Coyotes there are. Simple fact is Ford has replace quite a few engines due to the ticking issue. They wouldn't be doing it if they didn't think there was a valid reason to do so. Ford isn't into loosing lots of money on non-required warranty claims.

I've worked on plenty of motors to know that the rod side clearance in that video is WAY beyond the allowable service manual specification of 0.020". And the guy who posted the video said all other pairs of rods were not even close to having that much side clearance.

Anyway, it should be expected when coming to an enthusiast site that problems of any kind are going to seem bigger than they are. Many people on this site seem to drive their car harder than most and are willing to even talk about them in general. Certainly there are cases where a problem brought up on a site like this have been a major issue that required a fix (those normally become visible outside sites like these), but to me this one has not reached that point. Hey if it does turn out to be a major flaw, Ford is going to pay the price big time. Very costly not just in repairs, but future sales and even possible legal implications. Let's hope for everyone's sake it does not come to that.

I agree that it probably affects a small over-all percentage of Coyotes ... but that doesn't meant there is a manufacturing issue in production at times that is causing issues like this engine ticking. I don't think anyone has claimed it to be a wide spread epidemic.

For instance in terms of manufacturing flaws that cause problems, what exactly was the manufacturing problem that resulted in that engine having a huge rod side clearance on that pair of rods? - most likely crankshaft machining. That much rod side clearance is not normal, and it is something that will eventually show up as a flaw after the car is sold. Yeah, manufacturing flaws happen in every car brand, and it's usually noticed and realized by enthusiast in every car brand that something isn't right quite right, and those kinds of flaws are also talked about on chat boards just like Mustang flaws have been noticed and talked about here for years.

 

[5 O UFO]

Second day after liqui moly ceratec. The BBQ tick is gone. Engine sounds like it should now. So I assume the tick is lubrication issue.

I'm definitely curious to hear more about this as time goes by.

 

[IronG]

Why is Ford authorizing short block replacements based on obvious cases of the engine having this characteristic ticking? Ford is very stringent on what they approve or not in terms of warranty work. Every engine replacement has to be approved by Ford ... dealerships just can't do it and expect compensation without per-approval from Ford.

Every company does this and are just as or more so stringent. Not sure what your point is. If an engine is bad under warranty and is easier cheaper to replace it, why would it not be done?


There have actually been quite a few members here who have had an engine or short block replaced because of this ticking noise - and some without Ford even telling the dealer to tear the engine down first to look for the cause. I don't think it really matters how many replacements have been done vs how many Coyotes there are. Simple fact is Ford has replace quite a few engines due to the ticking issue. They wouldn't be doing it if they didn't think there was a valid reason to do so. Ford isn't into loosing lots of money on non-required warranty claims.

Again, you are just looking at a miniscule number with abstract details on why it was done. There isn't a car manufacture that does not mess up a few engines.

I've worked on plenty of motors to know that the rod side clearance in that video is WAY beyond the allowable service manual specification of 0.020". And the guy who posted the video said all other pairs of rods were not even close to having that much side clearance.

No doubt, however there is no way to know what they were doing or why they were doing it.

I agree that it probably affects a small over-all percentage of Coyotes ... but that doesn't meant there is a manufacturing issue in production at times that is causing issues like this engine ticking. I don't think anyone has claimed it to be a wide spread epidemic.

Totally agree

For instance in terms of manufacturing flaws that cause problems, what exactly was the manufacturing problem that resulted in that engine having a huge rod side clearance on that pair of rods? - most likely crankshaft machining. That much rod side clearance is not normal, and it is something that will eventually show up as a flaw after the car is sold. Yeah, manufacturing flaws happen in every car brand, and it's usually noticed and realized by enthusiast in every car brand that something isn't right quite right, and those kinds of flaws are also talked about on chat boards just like Mustang flaws have been noticed and talked about here for years.

Maybe, maybe not on your hypothesis on why. We could probably come up with a few others just as likely. I agree that every car enthusiast board regardless of brand is the same when it comes to problems. The first to see any are the enthusiast. If it is a true problem it starts to show up elsewhere. It makes the news when there is a recall or major flaw affecting large numbers. The issues talked about on this board and the number of replaced engines is almost insignificant when you take into account an already doomed percentage will fail (thanks bean counters!).

Sponsored