Post bbq tick users. WHICH OIL?

[Condor1970]

Test methodology and accuracy are questionable.

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4336275/1

More talk:
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3854560/1

I believe the Mobil 1 shear at 117,000psi, but QSUD 5w20 is rated even higher? I admit I find that hard to believe.

That said, I wonder what the shear strength of regular Mobil 1 5w20 is.

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[GT Pony]

^^^ 540 Rat blog ... take it with a grain of salt, as all the talk by oil experts on bobistheoilguy elude to.

 

[Condor1970]

^^^ 540 Rat blog ... take it with a grain of salt, as all the talk by oil experts on bobistheoilguy elude to.

So, where can find real unbiased data? Seems like that's the only one on the internet. If that can't be trusted for some half accurate data, then how do you get info anywhere else?

 

[GT Pony]

So, where can find real unbiased data? Seems like that's the only one on the internet. If that can't be trusted for some half accurate data, then how do you get info anywhere else?

Good question ... you can't really unless you can find a real official study (like by SAE) that does some sophisticated engine wear comparison testing on different oils. Way too time consuming and expensive to do. That's why Rat has a "good thing going" because nobody can find accurate believable data to refute it. There might be some basic "trending" with his test data, but to rank them in the exact order he has is very questionable because of the test methods used. Room for lots of accuracy error, as the bobistheoilguy threads talk about.

In order for oils to be officially API rated, they must meet official test standards for wear, etc. Obviously, some oils are better than others even though they all meet API standards, but trying to find accurate data on how to rank them is basically impossible.

 

[GT Pony]

This is the kind of oil data I use to pick an oil - VOAs and UOAs. Virgin Oil Analysis and Used Oil Analysis.

I like to look at how much the oil viscosity shears down in the UOA, and also look at HTHS (High Temp High Shear) viscosity and Noack numbers. Going with a 5W-30 is the best way to bump up the HTHS into a safe region.

 

[mustangflanagan]

Anyone know of which type of metals to analyse for when sending a oil sample out. My work does it but need to know which type of metals to look for.

 

[GT Pony]

Anyone know of which type of metals to analyse for when sending a oil sample out. My work does it but need to know which type of metals to look for.

They are listed in the UOA summary table I posted just above your post.

 

[Condor1970]

I get the feeling that many of us care for our cars better than we care for ourselves.

I just got done chopping down a few dead trees for some extra firewood. My back is killing me, my arms are sore, and a wood chip flew under my safety glasses and scratched my eye. I'm a hunched over, half blind Gimp!!!

Now, why the heck does my car have this incessant tick?!?!?!?!

 

[TheLion]

Looks like AMSOIL and PUP actually thickened up in a few cases. Even AMSOIL OE which is a Group III+ blend does very well. I'm surprised at Mobil 1 considering how many OE's spec their oil, also their formula then is not the same formula now, so that data is not accurate given the age of the data...I've been thinking of going back to PUP myself however as their new Dexos 1 Gen 2 formula is out. I have a hard time believing Mobil 1 could possibly meet Dexos 1 Gen 2 certs and shear down that bad....maybe the old Gen 1 formula allowed for that?

Yes PUP does have a new Dexos 1 Gen 2 certified oil, it's on the shelves with the Gen 2 label on it. That's why Dodge used PUP as their factory fill because of it's supposedly excellent resistance to shear which was a particularly big problem in the V10's in the Vipers and super charged 392 Hemi's. I've been changing at 5k intevals and am fully coated with TriboTex now, so even with the shear I"m not too concerned at this point having only run Mobil 1 for a single oil change, but it would be nice to have more stable oil performance if their current formula shears as badly as their old one!

I might give the new Quaker Stake a try as well if the price is right. So far my oil changes been the following:

1. 5,600 Miles changed MC Semi-Syn 5W-20 to MC Semi-Syn 5W-20 and FL500S Filter by dealership (before I bought the car)

2. 10,000 miles changed MC Semi-Sny 5W-20 to PUP 5W-20 and FL500S Filter

3. 16,000 miles changed PUP 5W-20 to MC Semi-Sny 5W-20 and FL500S Filter as a first attempt at diagnosing the mild BBQ tick I noticed, no change when going back to MC Semi-Syn

4. 20,000 miles changed MC Semi-Syn 5W-20 to Mobil 1 5W-20 (newest Dexos 1 Gen 2 formula) and FL500S filter, currently at 23,800 and some change. TriboTEX went in at 21k. I'm guessing that if Mobil 1's current formula shears as badly as their old one, it's thinned out some by now. Will change again at 25,000 miles if not sooner and may go back to PUP.

So I just need to spin the wheel of oil to see what's next...one thing is for sure, AMSOIL Signature Series in ALL cases above performed very well in shear even over 10k interval and in some cases even thickened up a tad which we want for 5W-20. But it also looks like PUP performed pretty well in the two sample cases. Vavoline was a mixed bag, 5W-20's only case did well, but their 5W-30 sheared down quite a bit. MC was not too bad over all and OE is always a safe bet!

Biggest surprise was Mobil 1...especially considering how many corvetts / camaro's and even exotics run their oil as a factory fill. I'd really like to see how their current formula stacks up. Problem is this is all old data and the formulas are all different now then they were 7 years ago before the new standards.

Mobil 1's HTHS viscosity is 2.75 vs. Amsoil SS at 2.67. But how well does Mobil 1's current formula hold it's viscosity, if it shears down that badly even with their current formula...oh boy!

 

[TheLion]

Also looks like RedLine has excellent shear resistance and very good HTHS viscosity. Their 5W-20 is as good at HTHS as some 5W-30's....very similar in price to Driven's/AMSOIL's 5W-20 formulas. Both Driven and RedLine are Group V Esters. AMSOIL is a Group IV but also performs very well. PAO's and Esters rule and there's no substitute, but PAO's do slightly better at low temps while Esters are slightly better at high temps (not much). Esters do blend better with additives as opposed to PAO's. Most often PAO's and Ester's are mixed with each other in different proportions to balance them out.

Redline is the only one however of the three that meet's Ford's OE spec for 5W-20, which is Ford WSS-M2C945-A for those that care about warranty (I've only used oils that meet or exceed the OE spec). While AMSOIL and Driven would likely have no issues actually meeting the spec and just as good of performance, I don't believe either is certified for it so you could run into warranty issues should you ever have a problem. But given the performance of Esters, at this point I'm thinking of just biting the bullet and running an expensive ester base oil that meets the OE spec at the factory 10k intervals given the outstanding shear performance and the fact that TriboTEX will only improve upon the shear by further limiting oil dilution due to blow by (which I've already witnessed). CeraTec or Archoil will have similar benefits.

Comparing price points:

1. 10,000 miles (OE interval) on RedLine 5W-20 + FL500S Filter = $95.90 + $5.96 = $101.86
2. 5,000 miles on PUP 5W-20 + FL500S Filter = 2 x ((24.97 + 21.93) + $5.96) = $105.72

Keep in mind you could buy 2 five quart containers of PUP each time for the same price and eventually have an extra oil change worth, but prices are nearly identical if you buy exactly 8~9 quarts but run the cheaper stuff at 50% intervals like I have been doing. We'll see how RedLine works out as far as engine clankyness etc.

 

[alanpv]

Yes PUP does have a new Dexos 1 Gen 2 certified oil, it's on the shelves with the Gen 2 label on it. That's why Dodge used PUP as their factory fill because of it's supposedly excellent resistance to shear which was a particularly big problem in the V10's in the Vipers and super charged 392 Hemi's.

Are you sure? The PUP spec sheets still show Dexos 1 Gen 1 and no SN+ cert. It's also not listed on http://www.gmdexos.com/owner/brands/dexos1/index.html.

Regular PP has both however and I plan on switching to it for my next change.

Also don't forget that with the online rebate, PUP only comes out to about $14 and PP is $12 for a 5 quart jug. Less if you choose the Shell gas rewards.

 

[TheLion]

Are you sure? The PUP spec sheets still show Dexos 1 Gen 1 and no SN+ cert. It's also not listed on http://www.gmdexos.com/owner/brands/dexos1/index.html.

Regular PP has both however and I plan on switching to it for my next change.

Also don't forget that with the online rebate, PUP only comes out to about $14 and PP is $12 for a 5 quart jug. Less if you choose the Shell gas rewards.

It might have very well been regular Penzoil Platinum that was Dexos 1 Gen 2. I was thinking PUP not PP. Good point on that, however oils like RedLine or Driven will provide the best HTHS viscosity and the greatest resistance to shear.

RedLine happens to meet the OE specs for Ford as well for warranty purposes. RedLine's greatest weakness is it's cold cranking viscosity which is 6000 at -30 C, spec limit for GF-5 is 6600 at -30. It still meets the OE spec, but it's at the upper limit in that one area. IN all other areas it performed very well against AMSOIL in their own independent tests on 5W-30 oil weights other than CCS. Even MC Semi-syn 5W-30 is at 5200 at -30C. Not much difference between the CCS of Motorcraft OE oil and RedLine's Cold Cranking Viscosity. Valvoline just says <6000...

However I'm not aware of any BBQ tickers having more issues in cold weather. It's all hot weather / high temp issues combined with the effects of blow by where oil thins out and likely why Ford Specs 5W-30 for the GT's sold in Austraila, well ok they do NOW. The original version of the aussie user manual for the GT's specked 5W-20 just like they do in the US. Then they changed it about a year in to 5W-30. I actually downloaded both the first and third revision just to see for myself.

Why not use a 5W-30 or even 0W-30 then? Warranty. I don't want to do anything that would cause issues with the warranty so I need to stay with 5W-20 weight oils that meet or exceed Ford's OE WSS-M2C945-A oil specification.

RedLine 5W-20 has very similar specs to AMSOIL's 0W-30 which is one of the most difficult blends to achieve because of the viscosity requirements are so broad. AMSOIL's 0W-30 his a tad thicker at 100C, but thinns out fast down to nearly the same viscosity at 150C under High Temperature High Shear conditions. Both RedLine and AMSOIL have proven in UOA's to be highly resistant to thinning and even thicken up a bit in some cases.

AMSOIL 0W-30: KV @ 100C = 10.4, KV @ 40C = 57.1, CCS Viscosity 5372 (-35C), NOACK = 8.8, HTHS 3.07

RedLine 5W-20: KV @ 100C = 9.0, KV @ 40C = 53, CCS Viscosity 6000 (-30C), NOACK = 8.0, HTHS 3.00

Why not AMSOIL 5W-20? Well it's a great oil, but if you after added protection under high RPM high load conditions, a higher HTHS viscosity is going to provide more protection and RedLine provides about the same HTHS oil film thickness as AMSOIL's 0W-30. Most 5W-30's HTHS is around 3.0 to 3.2 with a minimum GF-5 spec of 2.9, so RedLine's 5W-20 meets the GF-5 HTHS spec for 30 weight oils. And it's darn close to the ideal 10 CSt viscosity at 100C that Clevite says is right about optimal balance of protection vs. drag.

It's not the MOST ideal oil or even one with the broadest capabilities, but a good blend over all with a greater bias on high load, high temperature protection rather than cold start protection. Esters have good adhesion and TriobTEX enhances oil adhesion as it's porous. So cold start pump-ability matters, but there are other facts that can compensate for cold start pump-ability to a degree.

For cold start conditions or any RPM range where components operate in boundary layer, mixed or elastohydrodynamic lubrication regimes, TriboTEX will outperform AMSOIL, RedLine and Driven combined because they all rely primarily on ZDDP blends that are vastly inferior to synthetic MSH. By the way ZDDP works in concert with synthetic MSH. It tends to fill in the gaps of the porous DLC coating that TriboTEX forms and provides additional anti-wear. So before the DLC coatings form, your relying on ZDDP entirely for anti-wear. Same as when they finally wear out you go back to relying solely on ZDDP, which performs well at anti-wear but is actually pretty sucky are reducing friction losses. Wear performance of RedLine according to the chart above posted by GT Pony is extremely good, so it should work well with the MSH DLC coating.

If you live in very cold climates like Canada etc. AMSOIL would be a better choice due to average temps and emphasis on ultra low temperature performance. But for lower great lakes region temps don't get anywhere near -30 on a regular basis or ever. That oil is rated for use down to -30C according to the OE spec and I see temps typically in the 10-20F (-6.6C) range in coolest parts of winter and at worst about 0F once in a while on extreme days. I also only drive the Mustang about once a week in the winter to avoid having to go through storage prep, risk flat spots on the tires etc. Plus I enjoy cruising as much as I enjoy performance oriented driving, which I can do just fine in the winter.

So between TriboTEX and RedLine, how the car is used, the average ambient temperatures etc. RedLine's one weakness isn't really an issue for me. I suspect Driven's formula is very similar to RedLine's as both are more focused on higher temp / high load protection as opposed to low temperature cold start wear. Even so, with TriboTEX now fully coating wear areas, the engine is protected against metal on metal contact on any parts for the fractions of a second that oil isn't flowing, combine that with enhanced oil adhesion of Ester and TriboTEX...cold start wear should be quite minimal. For my application I think 10k change intervals with RedLine Group V base oil is going to offer better overall protection vs. 5k intervals with an of the shelf Group III+ base oil.

 

[TheLion]

And if you didn't care about warranty, RedLine's 0W-20 has some really good properties as well that still best every 5W-20 out there at high temp performance including AMSOIL's 5W-20. 9.1 CSt @ 100C, 48 CSt @ 40C, 2.9 CSt at 150C (HTHS), 9 NOACK, CCS Viscosity 5500 @ -35. It's another option. You give up just a tad HTHS with 0W-20, but your still meeting the 30 weight GF-5 HTHS spec with a 20 weight oil....these would be great oils for hot climates like texas, florida etc., but should still work quite well in colder climates like the lower great lakes regions. Once you get up north further towards Canada and average temps are in the -10's and -20's in winter you might see better overall performance with other oils due to an emphasis on low temp. But even AMSOIL's blends are not perfect and have a bias in operating range.

 

[GT Pony]

Valvoline was a mixed bag, 5W-20's only case did well, but their 5W-30 sheared down quite a bit.

Are you are referring to the UOA collection table I posted above? As you said, that is probably somewhat old data, and that Valvoline was probably their old formula "SynPower" before they started calling it Valvoline "Advanced", which has the dexos1 Gen2 SN+ rating. I found a couple of UOAs on bobistheoilguy (links below) of the new Advanced formula in 5W-30, and the shear down was basically zero.

I went with Valvoline Advanced 5W-30 and my engine sounds quieter on it than it did on Motorcraft 5W-20. My engine is not a "ticker", but the valve train sounds a bit quieter to me on the Valvoline.

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4841559

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4841837

Here's a VOA.
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4682481

 

[accel]

Also looks like RedLine has excellent shear resistance and very good HTHS viscosity. Their 5W-20 is as good at HTHS as some 5W-30's....very similar in price to Driven's/AMSOIL's 5W-20 formulas. Both Driven and RedLine are Group V Esters. AMSOIL is a Group IV but also performs very well. PAO's and Esters rule and there's no substitute, but PAO's do slightly better at low temps while Esters are slightly better at high temps (not much). Esters do blend better with additives as opposed to PAO's. Most often PAO's and Ester's are mixed with each other in different proportions to balance them out.

Redline is the only one however of the three that meet's Ford's OE spec for 5W-20, which is Ford WSS-M2C945-A for those that care about warranty (I've only used oils that meet or exceed the OE spec). While AMSOIL and Driven would likely have no issues actually meeting the spec and just as good of performance, I don't believe either is certified for it so you could run into warranty issues should you ever have a problem. But given the performance of Esters, at this point I'm thinking of just biting the bullet and running an expensive ester base oil that meets the OE spec at the factory 10k intervals given the outstanding shear performance and the fact that TriboTEX will only improve upon the shear by further limiting oil dilution due to blow by (which I've already witnessed). CeraTec or Archoil will have similar benefits.

Comparing price points:

1. 10,000 miles (OE interval) on RedLine 5W-20 + FL500S Filter = $95.90 + $5.96 = $101.86
2. 5,000 miles on PUP 5W-20 + FL500S Filter = 2 x ((24.97 + 21.93) + $5.96) = $105.72

Keep in mind you could buy 2 five quart containers of PUP each time for the same price and eventually have an extra oil change worth, but prices are nearly identical if you buy exactly 8~9 quarts but run the cheaper stuff at 50% intervals like I have been doing. We'll see how RedLine works out as far as engine clankyness etc.

I am not sure RedLine is actually certified by ford. It does not even have api logo on it. I think its RedLine beliefs that they meed ford spec and api sn or whatever. Not saying redline is bad though.

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