Base GT track day limits

[Fastoldman]

We will continue to disagree as I put safety on the front burner, but after instructing a ton of students in cars that are faster, stop better , and are safer ( yes safer ) than many race cars of years past, I would have no problem with a guy in a base Mustang - which would destroy a GT of years past stopping and turning. I think luc is more accurate than I , because we are not talking about full bore racing , we are talking about a guy who wants to drive his car fast, within fairly strict constraints, with a safety tech inspection, and he is probably at less risk than on the LA freeway. New drivers seldom even hit 60-70% of the cars potential and usually there is an Instructor in the seat next to them. We seem to have differing views but we are not talking racing, we are discussing an HPDE, and that is a world of difference.

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[WCRookie99]

We will continue to disagree as I put safety on the front burner, but after instructing a ton of students in cars that are faster, stop better , and are safer ( yes safer ) than many race cars of years past, I would have no problem with a guy in a base Mustang - which would destroy a GT of years past stopping and turning. I think luc is more accurate than I , because we are not talking about full bore racing , we are talking about a guy who wants to drive his car fast, within fairly strict constraints, with a safety tech inspection, and he is probably at less risk than on the LA freeway. New drivers seldom even hit 60-70% of the cars potential and usually there is an Instructor in the seat next to them. We seem to have differing views but we are not talking racing, we are discussing an HPDE, and that is a world of difference.

Ok, fair enough, I must have had the scary Students over the years.

Cheers!

 

[ice445]

Yep Thanks. First of all, I never met Paul but he obviously was a very charismatic and well liked man. His talent to win in that Series at they time was certainly impressive.

Switching gears, the photo of the crashed Mustang at RA is not my car nor me driving rather an example of a brake failure that I witnessed. Sorry for that confusion.

The question of this thread "Base GT track day limits" is the topic. I've never "Sugar Coated" anything in my life and really not going to start now.

IMHO a BASE GT especially at fast tracks and Willow Springs has a huge sign when you enter it "Fastest Road in the West" will quickly become either dangerous or simply not a car you want to upgrade to make last/safe. It just isn't. Its like taking a Pinto back in the day and turning it into a Race Car. Haha, yes people did it but really makes zero sense.

If you said, Im buying a "body in white" or even a 2017 $22,000 stripped down Mustang eco boost and building it into a track car, I would feel way better about it.

The point that most cars at track events today are NOT track cars and just Street Cars people bring just to have fun, scares me even more and IS absolutely the WRONG message! This is not like going to Top Golf when you have no clue how to golf but let's drink and have a good time bugs the crap out of me.

My message was on point, honest, direct and no BS. I even apologized in advance. Road Racing events like HPDE are high speeds, dangerous, and should be respected.

Remember "red-mist" (not the character in SpongeBob SquarePants, or road rage) rather the feeling of not knowing were you are or confusion and/or trying to chase the car in front of you but making way too many mistakes along the way. It's real and Novices need to understand this could (not with everyone)happen.

So, Fastoldman, thank you for your comments and opinion but I simply disagree with your "soft" approach to learning or enjoying something very dangerous. Road Racing events like HPDE are fun great time until they're NOT.... We're trying to paint the FULL picture, not 1/2 the story and everything is just fun and games.

I feel like you aren't giving the base GT enough credit. Yes, the brakes are the weakest aspect because they don't have sufficient cooling, but they're not that bad. Especially for a novice. There's also almost no meaningful difference in the hydraulic system between a base and pp GT. You can easily upgrade to the 6 piston brembo kit and buy the lower belly pan and air ducts to have a pretty damn solid braking system for about 2 grand.

The rest of the negatives of the base will simply make you slower or have to tap out earlier because the car has hit its limits. Again, not a big issue for a novice. The diff is good, but unlike the torsen it will wear out much quicker. The engine cooling will reject less heat before you have to calm down. Both of those can be upgraded fairly inexpensively. I put in a PP radiator myself for $300 including coolant. Makes a huge difference at altitude especially. A full torsen diff can be had for under 900 bucks.

The final limit is the base suspension. This I don't find to be dangerous, just slow. You get a decent amount of body roll and the damping/rebound curve is really weird especially above triple digits. But I've never found it prone to loss of control despite that. The car just feels heavier than it is (best way to describe it). A full suspension kit that isn't slow that comes to mind is the FP Track pack, and that's around 1200 bucks.

So all in all you can fix most of the base deficiencies for around 5 grand, not including wider wheels and tires which are basically mandatory if you don't want to be the slowest person there, lol.


Just my 2 cents, obviously you're experienced and I understand your perspective, but I just don't think these cars are that dire from a safety standpoint. OP also has a newer car and apparently Ford reversed the cooling vanes finally, so the base brakes may actually be mildly acceptable depending on how effective that change was.

 

[luc]

“The point that most cars at track events today are NOT track cars and just Street Cars people bring just to have fun, scares me even more and IS absolutely the WRONG message! This is not like going to Top Golf when you have no clue how to golf but let's drink and have a good time bugs the crap out of me”



Get real, it’s not a message but rather a statement of facts
You can like or dislike this fact but that is not going to change what is the reality of track days today
And while going fast on a race track in a non-modified street car is not the safest hobby than someone can have, it’s far from being the most dangerous and certainly less than what you seems to want beginner to believe
I was the co owner of a race and open track for over 15 years and i have a very good idea of the relative safety of the open track hobby
You have countless clubs putting thousands of events every year at a multitude of tracks for thousands and thousands of drivers and how many people get badly hurt or are killed every year?
Do the research and get back to us.

I can tell you that in California that has been zero in recent memory
Not trying to pickup a fight with you but once again you’re making a blanket statement that has no basis in reality

Let me add a more general comment regarding racers and open tracker
Racers, being amateurs or professionals (btw, back in the day of WC, getting a scca professional license was MUCH easier than getting a national license) are not demigods hovering over the plebeians open trackers
I have known amateur being better racer than professionals, Paul Mumford being a good example, and open trackers being better drivers than racers

 

[Scootsmcgreggor]

Whole lotta dick swingin’ in here boys….

might as well just post some pics and get this over with.

 

[theruleslawyer]

Whole lotta dick swingin’ in here boys….

might as well just post some pics and get this over with.

 

[WCRookie99]

Just buy a M1 from Granger, then you don’t have to worry about:
1. Brakes fading
2. Transmission failure.
3. Engine blowing up (GT350 dig, hahaha, now all the GT350 guys will come out of the wood work, don’t get wacky please point is 5.0 seems to be more reliable then 5.2)
4. Rear end slipping after 2 laps (when you don’t have the Torsen)
5. Engine overheating due to small radiator and no engine oil cooler.
6. Transmission over heating.
7. Rear end overheating.
8. Poor handling when you go faster then a Sunday drive.
9. Good power but not enough to stay ahead of a 1973 Pinto (hahaha, here we go again people just can’t take a joke)
10. Way better aero, suspension parts from GT350 etc…

The Base Mustang GT is a great street car especially in Convertible trim, but come on everyone, it’s not a Track car or at minimum we can all agree it will need significant updates/upgrades quickly if you track it any faster then a Sunday drive on the track.

 

[Marsalad]

I have a stock PP2 and was hoping to take it to a track day this summer. I have absolutely zero track experience and this is my daily transportation. My intention is to have some fun and “see what she’ll do” in a legal and controlled environment. I assume the car will be fine and I will be the limiting factor.
That being said, the closest track to me is Watkins Glen. Can anyone provide some insight or relevant tips in regard to what I should expect or how I should prepare (other than what has already been mentioned here)?
Also, if there is a more appropriate venue in the upstate New York area please feel free to let me know.

 

[luc]

Here’s mine, as people have stated the M1 hood decal looks like a big dick.

Just buy a M1 from Granger, then you don’t have to worry about:
1. Brakes fading
2. Transmission failure.
3. Engine blowing up (GT350 dig, hahaha, now all the GT350 guys will come out of the wood work, don’t get wacky please point is 5.0 seems to be more reliable then 5.2)
4. Rear end slipping after 2 laps (when you don’t have the Torsen)
5. Engine overheating due to small radiator and no engine oil cooler.
6. Transmission over heating.
7. Rear end overheating.
8. Poor handling when you go faster then a Sunday drive.
9. Good power but not enough to stay ahead of a 1973 Pinto (hahaha, here we go again people just can’t take a joke)
10. Way better aero, suspension parts from GT350 etc…

The Base Mustang GT is a great street car especially in Convertible trim, but come on everyone, it’s not a Track car or at minimum we can all agree it will need significant updates/upgrades quickly if you track it any faster then a Sunday drive on the track.
View attachment 660540

Let it goes….
You must have missed the part about the OP not being able to afford a used Mustang with the PP1 and also that he can’t afford do do a lot of track event….
How would he buy a M1 ???
He bought what he could afford and want to have fun with it…. Give the guy a break…
And stop the BS about Sunday drive and all the other crap
You have made your opinion known many times and nobody agrees with you…. That should tell you something….
You seems to be stuck in the past and un capable of accepting that times (and cars and clubs and drivers) have changed
To the OP
Don’t worry you will enjoy your car on the track and don’t worry about the naysayer and all this BS

 

[Michael_vroomvroom]

I have a stock PP2 and was hoping to take it to a track day this summer. I have absolutely zero track experience and this is my daily transportation. My intention is to have some fun and “see what she’ll do” in a legal and controlled environment. I assume the car will be fine and I will be the limiting factor.

Yes, for sure you will be the limiting factor. Both on your first and many coming trackdays. Had I read what one of the guys in this thread is posting about trackdays with the Mustang GT, I'd be at zero trackdays rather than the 7-10 I'm at now, after two years. Utterly useless scaremongering stuff that helps no-one in my novice opinion.

This thread has good and practical tips:
https://www.mustang6g.com/forums/threads/first-track-day-prep-and-expectations.156490/

 

[WCRookie99]

I have a stock PP2 and was hoping to take it to a track day this summer. I have absolutely zero track experience and this is my daily transportation. My intention is to have some fun and “see what she’ll do” in a legal and controlled environment. I assume the car will be fine and I will be the limiting factor.
That being said, the closest track to me is Watkins Glen. Can anyone provide some insight or relevant tips in regard to what I should expect or how I should prepare (other than what has already been mentioned here)?
Also, if there is a more appropriate venue in the upstate New York area please feel free to let me know.

You’ll love Watkins Glen and PP2 Mustang will do just fine. Great track, lots of history and fast.

Obviously, work your speed up slowly, most corners are way faster then you think but getting there slowly is key.

Proper braking technique will help at that track to save brakes and keep momentum up.

Fun times

 

[smithhead]

Thanks everyone for all the advice. I'm humbled to be able to get it from people with such experience. I'm sorry this stirred up some disagreements, but with everything there are differing opinions. I was seriously considering selling the car but will hold off for now.

I did another track day yesterday, along with a friend who has a 2020 California Special (so essentially the same with bigger tires). Temps were just a little warmer, mid 50's. I drove a little more aggressively but still took it relatively easy and focused on the corners. I didn't seem to be any faster than I was a month ago, although I felt I drove a really good line on on my last lap.

CHT was low 220's, transmission only 200. My friend got into the 230's for CHT, which seems high given the ambient temps and I don't think he was that aggressive either. Neither of us had any brake issues.

It's lame that the CHT gauge doesn't have a red zone at all, and the danger point 240 is right in the middle; you'd expect the middle to be the normal zone. Seems like they could change that. And the actual numbers display doesn't show trans temp, but things like A/F ratio and other stuff I don't really need right now. Also, why doesn't the regular temperature gauge rise at all?

Again, I am not trying to set any lap times. I am just trying to more fully enjoy the car as are most other people at these track days. There are all kinds of cars and no one had any issues. Obviously you don't want to go off track, but that track is nice as there is nothing to hit anywhere. But at this point the limits of the car are above my own and probably will be for a while. And if I have to take breaks between laps that is fine for now as well.

But I plan to just do autocross until I get a better feel for the limits of the car. If I am able to go to the track more and my skill increases, I will start looking at appropriate changes. But time and money preclude me from going a lot.

I would like to think the rotor fix for 2021 helps. Certainly I can get better pads and upgrade fluids. If there is a bolt-on brake duct kit that helps it would be worth it, along with a differential heat shield. (It seems like a detached metal shield would be better than wrapping the exhaust.) Maybe a finned transmission pan and differential cover. I don't know what oil or transmission cooler options there are.

I also don't fundamentally have a problem upgrading the brakes, I am planning on getting bigger wheels/tires for summer anyway. My issue is the 18" wheels make a good winter set up. So I have to think about that.

It's too bad that there are so many concerns with these cars. I checked the brake sizes against a lot of the competition, and most of the competition has a similar size. I'm sure some of them have issues as well, although some of them weigh even more and as far as I could find didn't have any brake issues in tests. And performance cars nowadays in general have bigger brakes and better fluids than they used to. But it is what it is, and I just need to take action accordingly. Thanks again very very much.

 

[ice445]

Thanks everyone for all the advice. I'm humbled to be able to get it from people with such experience. I'm sorry this stirred up some disagreements, but with everything there are differing opinions. I was seriously considering selling the car but will hold off for now.

I did another track day yesterday, along with a friend who has a 2020 California Special (so essentially the same with bigger tires). Temps were just a little warmer, mid 50's. I drove a little more aggressively but still took it relatively easy and focused on the corners. I didn't seem to be any faster than I was a month ago, although I felt I drove a really good line on on my last lap.

CHT was low 220's, transmission only 200. My friend got into the 230's for CHT, which seems high given the ambient temps and I don't think he was that aggressive either. Neither of us had any brake issues.

It's lame that the CHT gauge doesn't have a red zone at all, and the danger point 240 is right in the middle; you'd expect the middle to be the normal zone. Seems like they could change that. And the actual numbers display doesn't show trans temp, but things like A/F ratio and other stuff I don't really need right now. Also, why doesn't the regular temperature gauge rise at all?

Again, I am not trying to set any lap times. I am just trying to more fully enjoy the car as are most other people at these track days. There are all kinds of cars and no one had any issues. Obviously you don't want to go off track, but that track is nice as there is nothing to hit anywhere. But at this point the limits of the car are above my own and probably will be for a while. And if I have to take breaks between laps that is fine for now as well.

But I plan to just do autocross until I get a better feel for the limits of the car. If I am able to go to the track more and my skill increases, I will start looking at appropriate changes. But time and money preclude me from going a lot.

I would like to think the rotor fix for 2021 helps. Certainly I can get better pads and upgrade fluids. If there is a bolt-on brake duct kit that helps it would be worth it, along with a differential heat shield. (It seems like a detached metal shield would be better than wrapping the exhaust.) Maybe a finned transmission pan and differential cover. I don't know what oil or transmission cooler options there are.

I also don't fundamentally have a problem upgrading the brakes, I am planning on getting bigger wheels/tires for summer anyway. My issue is the 18" wheels make a good winter set up. So I have to think about that.

It's too bad that there are so many concerns with these cars. I checked the brake sizes against a lot of the competition, and most of the competition has a similar size. I'm sure some of them have issues as well, although some of them weigh even more and as far as I could find didn't have any brake issues in tests. And performance cars nowadays in general have bigger brakes and better fluids than they used to. But it is what it is, and I just need to take action accordingly. Thanks again very very much.

CHT is how the car determines coolant temp. Coolant temp is typically 10 to 15F below what CHT reports.

IMO you're not gonna destroy the car doing some novice track days, and as I've said already most of the weakpoints can be upgraded fairly inexpensively if you start wanting to get more serious. I see you're in Salt Lake, if you start doing autocross I'll see you there (My car is very similar to yours). I won't be at the Farmington events because my car is too loud, but I will be at UMC. I can show you some of the simple modifications I did to improve the base car. The radiator IMO is the biggest thing, since the altitude here KILLS the cooling performance of the base radiator. Spirited mountain drives uphill used to get my CHT into the 230's when I was stock, lol.

 

[smithhead]

CHT is how the car determines coolant temp. Coolant temp is typically 10 to 15F below what CHT reports.

IMO you're not gonna destroy the car doing some novice track days, and as I've said already most of the weakpoints can be upgraded fairly inexpensively if you start wanting to get more serious. I see you're in Salt Lake, if you start doing autocross I'll see you there (My car is very similar to yours). I won't be at the Farmington events because my car is too loud, but I will be at UMC. I can show you some of the simple modifications I did to improve the base car. The radiator IMO is the biggest thing, since the altitude here KILLS the cooling performance of the base radiator. Spirited mountain drives uphill used to get my CHT into the 230's when I was stock, lol.

I would love to see your car. Now that the events at UMC are on Wednesdays it will be a little hard for me to go, especially since they are so early. As the year progresses I'd hope they would make them later. But looks like you're talking about the SCCA events. I'm hesitant to try those until I get more experience.

So far the regular temp gauge just sits right in the middle once I'm warmed up even though my CHT is up 40 degrees.

My BMW oil temp use to rise with simple drives up the canyon as well, and I had the "high speed" oil cooler. It had turbos though, I was hoping a normally aspirated car wouldn't have cooling issues as much.

 

[smithhead]

The one other thing that concerns me though is the mention of the master cylinder failing. I don't see that mentioned as much, but obviously that would be a big problem. But why does this happen? It's disturbing to think that could be an issue with a new car, it has to be able to withstand plenty of panic stops in its lifetime. Is it the heat from the left front brake?

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