2017-'18 GT500 & GT500KR

[02gtnh]

I do know what I'm saying, I have multiple degrees in Automotive everything.

Listen, the target was suppose to be 800hp and the media now confirms that.

What are Fords options?

A Bi or Twin Turbo set up using a Hot V configuration OR, a large cube, supercharged V8.

You can extract an extra 0.8 liters from the 5.0 Coyote. I'm not sure why you think that's not possible. There are bored and stroked Coyotes right now and we have seen what they can do with it. Have you not explored PTWA technology? Because Ford will make a liar out of drivetrain people.

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

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[thePill]

Anything is possible with enough money but a 5.8L coyote is not practical. Especially for boost. The 5.2L is with plasma cylinder and that's pretty much maxed on the bore. You would still have to add > 4" stroke. Without the increased deck of the old 5.4/5.8L you are gonna have to run a very short rod and a piston with a very short skirt to not pull it out the bottom of the block. You are also gonna have crazy side loads. JPC offered a 344 CI coyote with sleeves and the works but I haven't heard of anyone actually running it. With boost you don't need all those cubes anyway. MMR said they built a 4.6 with a 5.4 (4.165") crank and it was expensive, a lot of work, and a complete turd.

Mihovetz has made 2500-3000hp with a stock 4.6 block with stock cylinder bores. Stock coyote cylinders are hit or miss at 1000hp or more. So why would you want to make the bores any thinner for a boosted application.

With what Ford has accomplished with the Voodoo, I wouldn't rule out a tall deck Coyote. However, I am leaning away from the supercharged option personally. Ford would want to include a V8 into the Ecoboost family.

At this point, Ford has only a few options if 800hp was achieved. Even at 750, only a few f audible options exist.

Easiest answer would be a parallel twin turbo like the FGT or Cobra Jet had. Tgat just won't fit in the S550 unless it's a V6. That leaves a large displacement, supercharged V8, a Hot V BiTurbo or a Hot V Sequential Twin Scroll. I'm not even positive a Sequential Turbo exist outside of the Powerstroke family. It is a Hot V design but it is not a Bi or Twin, although it does have two spools. Perhaps a Twin Scrolling Sequential Turbo could make 750+hp on a 5.0 up to 5.4, maybe 5.5.

The GT500 will join the Ecoboost Family IF Port Direct Injection or just DI is used. I heard the trucks are getting DI so.

 

[thePill]

If the GT500 is in LA, I think there will be a 2017.5 GT500 but no KR's.

The 2018 GT500KR will show up in Detroit and be A10 Auto only.


thePill honestly feels that the GT500 and GT500KR will be completely different outputs like the 2008-2009 KR. The 800hp GT500KR is probably A10 ONLY.

The GT500 could be 700-750hp with a single twin scroll turbo. Rumor suggest that at the very least, direct injection is being added to the 5.0. Word is the F150 is also getting DI in 2018. If the 5.0 gets DI, the Voodoo will adopt it as well.

 

[Vernichtung]

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

I agree. There really are no words.

 

[J_Maher_AMG]

That would be neat... they would need to make around 190hp per liter. On a V6, it is a bit easier due to less friction from the missing 2 cylinders. A V8 4.2 would require more boost to make the same output...



The most important thing isn't the displacement so much as the type of Turbo configuration they will use. The S550 is quite cramped for a parallel twin turbo. In order to make upwards of 750+hp you need 2 turbos on a 5 to 5.5 liter Coyote. If 750+hp is the goal and they are stuck with a supercharger, they need more displacement.

A 2.3 supercharged 5.2 V8 and pass emissions getting no less than 21mpg? Doubt it...


The next great engineering feat that needs accomplished by Ford Performance is Port Direct Injection in the Coyote/Voodoo and a Hot V Ecoboost V8 for a Mustang. That is coming soon...

What makes you think a twin turbo V8 needs to be 5 - 5.5 liters to max 750hp? Come out from under the rock you've been under. The 4.0L in the new C63 and AMG has been tuned to well over 700hp with bolt ons and a tune....

And no, the V8 would require less boost than the V6. Do you just pull information out of thin air and proclaim it as "knowledge"?

 

[JohnZiraldo]

[/B]

What makes you think a twin turbo V8 needs to be 5 - 5.5 liters to max 750hp? Come out from under the rock you've been under. The 4.0L in the new C63 and AMG has been tuned to well over 700hp with bolt ons and a tune....

And no, the V8 would require less boost than the V6. Do you just pull information out of thin air and proclaim it as "knowledge"?

IMO... You cannot possibly be native to Newfoundland.

 

[thePill]

What makes you think a twin turbo V8 needs to be 5 - 5.5 liters to max 750hp? Come out from under the rock you've been under. The 4.0L in the new C63 and AMG has been tuned to well over 700hp with bolt ons and a tune....

And no, the V8 would require less boost than the V6. Do you just pull information out of thin air and proclaim it as "knowledge"?

The more I read this the more I find issues with it.

AMG 4.0 is an OEM engine that makes 500-520hp. So, you are waaaaay off.

If 800hp is the goal, then they need to make more power per liter. A V8 has far more parasitic losses with the extra cylinders. So, it takes LESS EFFORT and less boost in a V6 to achieve a high HP per Liter output.

Not comparing output or anything else between the two.

If 800hp is the goal, then a 4.0 would need to produce 200hp per liter. Ford cannot do that... nobody can do that.

Now, examine the FGT's EB3.5 output. 600+ out of 3.5 is 171hp per liter. Got it? If a 5.0 used the same exact system to achieve 800hp, it would need to make 160hp per liter. Do you understand?

The EB3.5 is more efficient than an EB5.0 would be and that is solely from parasitic losses.


Therefore, the EB3.5's fabulous 171hp per liter can't be matched with a 5.0. I can't even see a BiTurbo or Twin making 160hp per liter to begin with.

160hp per liter out of a V8 is unheard of. thePill reported this here... The ratio will be between 140-150hp per liter IF the EB V8 is needed at all.

No, a turbo V8 cannot match the V6's output per liter... I'm not sure why you introduced all this nonsense.

Bottom line: a FGT EB3.5 makes 171hp per liter SO, a 4.0 V8 would need to exceed that 171hp (up to 178-190hp) if 750-800hp was the target.


Do you understand?


thePill laid it all out for you above. It is correct...


If a TT 4.2 is in the tube, it needs to MAKE MORE POWER per Liter than the FGT3.5.

Therefore, it would need more boost.

 

[thePill]

Really?

A EB3.5 makes 600hp at 171hp per liter

A hypothetical TT 4.2 needs to make 176-190hp per liter in order to reach the target 750-800hp.

As thePill stated earlier.


A Twin Turbo 4.2 NEEDS more boost than the EB3.5 in order to make the rumored 750-800hp.


EB3.5 is at least 600 or 171hp per liter. Are you saying an EB 4.2 would make more power per liter than the FGT's EB3.5 with less boost?

That is not how it works :( I know many assume more cylinders, more power per liter. That is not the case.

 

[Vernichtung]

IMO... You cannot possibly be native to Newfoundland.

thePill brings out the best in all of us, Mr. Ziraldo.

 

[J_Maher_AMG]

IMO... You cannot possibly be native to Newfoundland.

Born and raised, but I guess sarcasm and humor is lost to many through text. Such a serious lot you Ontario folk are, your loss

 

[J_Maher_AMG]

If the GT500 is in LA, I think there will be a 2017.5 GT500 but no KR's.

The 2018 GT500KR will show up in Detroit and be A10 Auto only.

Source? This is what I'm referring to.

thePill honestly feels that the GT500 and GT500KR will be completely different outputs like the 2008-2009 KR. The 800hp GT500KR is probably A10 ONLY.

The GT500 could be 700-750hp with a single twin scroll turbo. Rumor suggest that at the very least, direct injection is being added to the 5.0. Word is the F150 is also getting DI in 2018. If the 5.0 gets DI, the Voodoo will adopt it as well.

However, as you have written here, I can agree with, and think along the same lines. The KR, if it comes to be, would probably have more power than the regular line as you suggest, and very well could be auto only as an exercise in drag racing and road course capabilities.

To be quite honest, a lot of what you say I can relate with and even agree with. Then there is some ideas/opinons regarding the future of the 350 that we tend to think differently on. The only thing I don't agree with is making wild statements left, right, and centre regarding technical aspects that you are often incorrect about, or have no proof or sources to back up your claims.

No hard feelings, I am assuming that most will see the sarcasm, but perhaps they won't as Mr. Ziraldo has demonstrated. Keep on keepin on Pill

 

[thePill]

Source? This is what I'm referring to.



However, as you have written here, I can agree with, and think along the same lines. The KR, if it comes to be, would probably have more power than the regular line as you suggest, and very well could be auto only as an exercise in drag racing and road course capabilities.

To be quite honest, a lot of what you say I can relate with and even agree with. Then there is some ideas/opinons regarding the future of the 350 that we tend to think differently on. The only thing I don't agree with is making wild statements left, right, and centre regarding technical aspects that you are often incorrect about, or have no proof or sources to back up your claims.

No hard feelings, I am assuming that most will see the sarcasm, but perhaps they won't as Mr. Ziraldo has demonstrated. Keep on keepin on Pill

I believe that as well.

There simply isn't enough magic left in the suspension to make a difference between GT500 and GT500KR.

 

[thePill]

If you look at the Spy photos again, everyone will notice a large bump in the center of the hood. Traditionally, this would indicate a supercharged V8. Reason being? A supercharger rest in between the cylinder banks where the 5.0's composite intake was.

A Twin Turbo or Parallel Turbo DOES NOT sit inside the V.

So... It has to be a supercharger...




There is absolutely no way Ford followed AMG on this very topic right? There is no way they would copy the Powerstroke design that they have right?

If we eliminate the Turbos, what does a V8 need to produce 750-800hp? An OEM 5.0 can probably make 650hp and pass emissions. Chevy needed DI and I'm betting Ford does too... So it needs a 2.3 liter TVS, Direct Injection and what should it displace? 5.0? 5.5? 4.0?

At 4.0, the engine would need to make 200hp per Liter and you need a 4 cylinder to pull those numbers. A 5.0 is 160hp per liter but then again, definitely needs DI. The EB3.5 makes 171hp and I doubt any V8 can beat that.

AMG's 4.0 made 503hp in 2014, not sure about now. It is easily a 600hp engine at 4 liters but that's about it. That's 150hp per liter and a V8 could achieve that...

At 150hp per liter, a 5.0 will produce 750hp.


Understand, 150hp per liter is an efficient V8...

In order for Ford to reach 800hp, they could push more boost or become more efficient at 5 liters. So, if 808hp was correct to begin with (they say as much as 810 now), they would need to do so by increasing the displacement.


thePill says it will need to be between 5.0 and 5.5 liters in order to make 800hp. thePill says it will be 5.4 liters and 808hp and nearly equal torque. I DO NOT feel that a supercharger will be utilized. There is a "Powerdome" for sure and most assume it's a supercharger. thePill feels that is incorrect. AMG discontinued the 5.5 Parallel BiTurbo which made close to 600hp with a Hot V BiTurbo 4.0 that makes 500-550hp. The GT500 will not use a traditional Twin Turbo... it will use a Hot V BiTurbo. Only explanation for the bump on the hood. A supercharger would need more than 5.8 liters to make 750-800 and be legal. Also, a parallel system mounts low and forward to the engine block, no room for one here.

There is still a SC Coyote to be had and it will probably be the 55th Anniversary Mach 1. It doesn't need to make 750-800hp. A Supercharged Cross Plane 5.2 could comfortably make 620-670hp and could arrive right when sales need a bump. I feel there will be a Hot V Single Turbo, Twin Scroll GT500 that sits around Hellcat HP levels, comes in manual and auto and is $66,995.

The GT500KR will be the higher end, 800+hp Hot V BiTurbo and use Ford 800tq A10 only. It will probably be in the $70,000's

 

[9secondko]

If you look at the Spy photos again, everyone will notice a large bump in the center of the hood. Traditionally, this would indicate a supercharged V8. Reason being? A supercharger rest in between the cylinder banks where the 5.0's composite intake was.

A Twin Turbo or Parallel Turbo DOES NOT sit inside the V.

So... It has to be a supercharger...




There is absolutely no way Ford followed AMG on this very topic right? There is no way they would copy the Powerstroke design that they have right?

If we eliminate the Turbos, what does a V8 need to produce 750-800hp? An OEM 5.0 can probably make 650hp and pass emissions. Chevy needed DI and I'm betting Ford does too... So it needs a 2.3 liter TVS, Direct Injection and what should it displace? 5.0? 5.5? 4.0?

At 4.0, the engine would need to make 200hp per Liter and you need a 4 cylinder to pull those numbers. A 5.0 is 160hp per liter but then again, definitely needs DI. The EB3.5 makes 171hp and I doubt any V8 can beat that.

AMG's 4.0 made 503hp in 2014, not sure about now. It is easily a 600hp engine at 4 liters but that's about it. That's 150hp per liter and a V8 could achieve that...

At 150hp per liter, a 5.0 will produce 750hp.


Understand, 150hp per liter is an efficient V8...

In order for Ford to reach 800hp, they could push more boost or become more efficient at 5 liters. So, if 808hp was correct to begin with (they say as much as 810 now), they would need to do so by increasing the displacement.


thePill says it will need to be between 5.0 and 5.5 liters in order to make 800hp. thePill says it will be 5.4 liters and 808hp and nearly equal torque. I DO NOT feel that a supercharger will be utilized. There is a "Powerdome" for sure and most assume it's a supercharger. thePill feels that is incorrect. AMG discontinued the 5.5 Parallel BiTurbo which made close to 600hp with a Hot V BiTurbo 4.0 that makes 500-550hp. The GT500 will not use a traditional Twin Turbo... it will use a Hot V BiTurbo. Only explanation for the bump on the hood. A supercharger would need more than 5.8 liters to make 750-800 and be legal. Also, a parallel system mounts low and forward to the engine block, no room for one here.

There is still a SC Coyote to be had and it will probably be the 55th Anniversary Mach 1. It doesn't need to make 750-800hp. A Supercharged Cross Plane 5.2 could comfortably make 620-670hp and could arrive right when sales need a bump. I feel there will be a Hot V Single Turbo, Twin Scroll GT500 that sits around Hellcat HP levels, comes in manual and auto and is $66,995.

The GT500KR will be the higher end, 800+hp Hot V BiTurbo and use Ford 800tq A10 only. It will probably be in the $70,000's

Ford has the v8 ecoboost tech to delight Mustang owners with exotic levels of safe, reliable power. The only reason for an alternate and lesser supercharger setup is a political one - to artificially inflate desire for a twin turbo eco 6 that comes close to v8 supercharged power.

The ecoboost 8 destroys the ecoboost 6.

 

[MikeyV]

What is the possibility of a Boss block, punched out to 7 Liters, cast in aluminum? Add DOCH heads, naturally aspirated?
At anything over 100 hp per liter, it would be near the targeted HP.

With the uniqueness and cool factor of the Voodoo, it would be a bit of a letdown to see a 5.0 or 5.4 or 5.8L coyote with turbos...and a REAL letdown to see a supercharged Coyote.

I can't see for taking the easy road after the grand slam of the Voodoo.

Also, at 7 liters, the 428 connection is there, and the Boss 429 thing is there too.

Wishful thinking, but a NA 428 making 725 hp would put the buldge in my pants.

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