Stock Rod Limit

[Apwrx]

The cost of developing a 800 HP Ecoboost street engine...and making the proper chassis modifications to safely handle 800 HP would easily cost 30K...or more...

But you are correct...an 800 HP Ecoboost is idiocy...

Ha! a 800hp ecobeast would be awesome. However I'd go v8 at that point a boosted v8 will be the next one in a few years when iam done flogging the 4. I do love this turbo 4 though and iam in no hurry to get a boosted 8.

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[Optimus]

This car is begging for meth...

I have been reading this thread from post #1 and could not believe that there was no mention of water/meth injection.

Why do all the tuners mention the need for lower temp because timing and performance is being lost due to high temps and the first solution is aftermarket I/C when a simple progressive water/meth system will lower temps far below ambient which an aftermarket I/C will never do.

BTW if flow is being restricted by the OEM I/C that is also a problem but flow has not been mentioned as an excuse as much as high temps.

 

[Apwrx]

I have been reading this thread from post #1 and could not believe that there was no mention of water/meth injection.

Why do all the tuners mention the need for lower temp because timing and performance is being lost due to high temps and the first solution is aftermarket I/C when a simple progressive water/meth system will lower temps far below ambient which an aftermarket I/C will never do.

BTW if flow is being restricted by the OEM I/C that is also a problem but flow has not been mentioned as an excuse as much as high temps.

Very good question I've wondered why tuners have not mentioned or done a meth setup.

 

[Optimus]

I am not saying detonation was part of the formula that killed this rod but water/meth would sure help in that case also.

 

[BGolden]

I apologize, I was linked to the thread and didn't even read the very first post or the poster. I honestly thought someone was asking what the stock rod limit was when I read the title. Was just told people were scared about their engine failing when they shouldn't be. You admitted you were pushing it and it let loose, this doesn't mean everybody that makes 420wtq is going to pop their motor.

Sorry about your luck, we are also willing to help you out if needed. I have a complete spare longblock I can give you Ford's cost on if needed.

Adam,

Thank you for reaching out of FB and on here. I appreciate it very much.

Everyone else,

I was incorrect after spending some time looking at it tonight it was cylinder 2. I was in a rush today to get it off the dyno and trying to clean up the mess before my next tune showed up. Looks like the rod broke up high. Rod bolts are still in it and you can spin what is left around on the crank through the hole on either side of the block. That's correct when I break something I do it right.

Plugs show no sign of detonation.

When we get it out and torn down I will post pics. It may not be this week as we are getting a GTR and single turbo Mustang wrapped up for TX2K.

 

[dgc333]

Something to keep in mind; There is an old hot rodder saying, "there is no replacement for displacement". That saying is as true today as it was back in the 50's when it was coined.

If you spend the same money to make an 800 HP 2.3 you could make a 1500+ HP coyote, hemi or ls.

 

[Juben]

I think what Juben was asking is what were the inlet temps going into the intake...post IC....if you were data logging that parameter. 106 inlet temp going into the turbo is still pretty warm, if the ambient was 70. If you still have the stock IC, then I would guess you were at or exceeding 200* at the manifold. What was the boost level at the failure rpm? These factory turbos build boost very rapidly, but their efficiency range is also very limited, and falls off rapidly above 22-23 psi. If you were pumping 29 psi out of the factory turbo, I agree with Juben...that turbo was pumping HOT air. We had similar issues back in the day when pushing the stock turbo hard on our turbo Buicks. Start pushing too hard, and it would cost you a head gasket..lol.

Were you tracking the EGT by chance? That's one parameter that I haven't seen any data on yet, and is pretty critical in the tuning of a turbo car.

You're right. I was talking about what the charge air temps (CAT) were that were actually entering the throttle body post intercooler. That's what I was saying that I would guess was sky high. The stock FMIC is junk, so if the IATs were around 100°, then the CATs were probably much higher than that with the stock FMIC. It doesn't matter if you've got the best engine and race gas in the world if CATs are insanely high. You can only compensate so much for poor efficiency conditions. Look at what ATP noted below!

I'll throw this out there too while I'm typing. I haven't intended anything I've said as busting on RIP. I've just mentioned what I have so people don't freak out and start spreading FUD that these engines will blow with light modifications. As Adam noted before me, they've made well over 200 passes with 400+ tq on their shop car. With the reasons I've noted (efficiency problems) and even some I probably haven't, these were harsh testing conditions, and I'd dare say that most engines would give up under such.

I have been reading this thread from post #1 and could not believe that there was no mention of water/meth injection.

Why do all the tuners mention the need for lower temp because timing and performance is being lost due to high temps and the first solution is aftermarket I/C when a simple progressive water/meth system will lower temps far below ambient which an aftermarket I/C will never do.

BTW if flow is being restricted by the OEM I/C that is also a problem but flow has not been mentioned as an excuse as much as high temps.

ATP mentions that both flow and poor cooling abilities plague the stock FMIC. They even go so far as to say that the factory FMIC is the worst of any FMIC on the EcoBoost engine lineup.

"During initial test phase of the Mustang EcoBoost 2.3L turbo engine platform, we encountered symptoms that the factory intercooler was insufficient in supporting the airflow even for the stock turbo (200+ degrees Fahrenheit intake air temperatures and steep drop in mid to top-end power).

We investigated the issues and realized the following:

First, charged air was not flowing fast enough through the intercooler for engine consumption. Due to excessive pressure drop across the core, the factory intercooler was identified as a major choking point. In fact, the inefficiency of the factory intercooler is the most severe case we encountered from any turbo platform including all of the Ford EcoBoost engines.

Second, low-density attributes of the factory intercooler posed a major issue for its thermal cooling capabilities. As a result, the factory intercooler not only restricted airflow, but also failed to effectively remove heat from the reduced airflow passing through the core. On a cold engine, one single 3rd and 4th gear run resulted in charge air temperatures to exceed 200 degrees Fahrenheit! This is very hot! It's unsustainable for the engine to operate continuously with these air temperatures and remain reliable.

We replaced the factory intercooler with a sufficient high density and high flowing Garrett intercooler core. Immediately we recovered the pressure drop at the core and logged charge air temperatures 50 degrees cooler! Finally, we are able to provide adequate thermal cooling for the turbo system.

The dyno chart represents eliminating the airflow bottleneck from the factory intercooler and enabling ALL (unrestricted) airflow to the engine. Additionally, cooler charged air temperatures (the result of improved thermal cooling) create increased air density for the engine. The results, A LOT more power and torque (and available consistently due to less heat soak).

The ATP Intercooler (Garrett core) for the Ford Mustang EcoBoost 2.3L works exceptionally well with the stock turbo and performs even better with an upgraded turbo (results coming soon). Invest in one!"

Source: ATP FMIC Product Development & Test Notes

Very good question I've wondered why tuners have not mentioned or done a meth setup.

I think most tuners are still trying to find the limits/ceiling of the stock system before moving on to additional fueling methods. I'm sure that once the limit of the stock system is found, then testing with WMI, port fueling, etc., would begin.

 

[TheZman]

And why not spend the money on the real thing...developing a 800 HP Ecoboost...what's the purpose?

I'll take a OEM GT500 when it arrives...thank you!

Ok here is the problem with your logic.. Your throwing terms like "Ultimate Performance Vehicle' around and "developing a 800 hp Ecoboost" and to be honest thats so irrelevant. Can you do it? Yes with money you can do anything! But lets be more realistic. First off nobody needs 800hp for the street or even CASUAL track racing or hanging out with the car club buddies and doing some burnouts or taking it to the strip and hitting 12's and even high 11's. Owning a mustang wether its a Turbo 4 OR v8 is about enjoying a car with GOOD performance! Lets be real even the majority of v8 owners are not going to but pushing there cars to 800hp to 1500hp. And the ones that do use it and most likely really Racing! As far as you comment on youll take a OEM GT500 over a high horsepower Ecoboost thats fine nothing wrong with that and thats your choice you probably have the money for it but if you dont like most of us,, have fun paying for the Insurance rate on that car!!! And thats were the Ecoboost niche gets filled. Its a great platform for guys that want an alternative to a gas guzzling high insurance rate v8 and its capable of making plenty of power over a STOCK GT with a little bit of money thrown at it without breaking the bank because its a factory Turbo engine and just with a Tune and some bolt ons your right there! You have a nice fast street car with and amazing 32 mpg engine and upwards over 400ft lbs of engine torque with just a Tune that you can take to the streets,the strip and places like auto cross and compete at a decent level but most of all just have fun! Thats the majority of what the Ecoboosts life will be out there on the streets a fun fast car. There will be people that will make this car into a monster with money tho i have no doubt with in 5 years there will be EcoBoost Mustangs doing 10's at the strip no doubt what so ever!!! Why? Because it has the design for it and it will have the aftermarket support for it. Like it or not! Will it be the ULTIMATE PERFORMANCE MACHINE' probably not but neither is a GT. You keep mentioning why not buy the real thing? What is the real thing? so it has to have 8 cylinders to be the real thing? Tell that to the guy driving a GT on the interstate with his loud music playing ,chest all puffed out ''ya i got the 5.0 v8 dude'' everything else is inferior but wait then all of a sudden GODZILLA pulls up next to him! He's got this tho right? that thing is only a 6 cylinder. Ya a 6 cylinder Nissan GTR and it just stomped the sh$t out of his car!!! My point is there will always be someone faster and it dosent matter how many cylinders are under the hood ,different strokes for different folks theres more then one way to make power and have a fun fast car! I just prefer to do it with a Turbo 4 that gets amazing fuel economy and cheaper insurance and if i want to build it up of over the years into something really fast it has that potential and i can throw money at it here and there to get it there... without spending $80k on a car up front!

 

[Juben]

Ok here is the problem with you logic.. Your throwing terms like "Ultimate Performance Vehicle' around and "developing a 800 hp Ecoboost" and to be honest thats so irrelevant. Can you do it? Yes with money you can do anything! But lets be more realistic. First off nobody needs 800hp for the street or even CASUAL track racing or hanging out with the car club buddies and doing some burnouts or taking it to the strip and hitting 12's and even high 11's. Owning a mustang wether its a Turbo 4 OR v8 is about enjoying a car with GOOD performance! Lets be real even the majority of v8 owners are not going to but pushing there cars to 800hp to 1500hp. And the ones that do use it and most likely really Racing! As far as you comment on youll take a OEM GT500 over a high horsepower Ecoboost thats fine nothing wrong with that and thats your choice you probably have the money for it but if you dont like most of us,, have fun paying for the Insurance rate on that car!!! And thats were the Ecoboost niche gets filled. Its a great platform for guys that want an alternative to a gas guzzling high insurance rate v8 and its capable of making plenty of power over a STOCK GT with a little bit of money thrown at it without breaking the bank because its a factory Turbo engine and just with a Tune and some bolt ons your right there! You have a nice fast street car with and amazing 32 mpg engine and upwards over 400ft lbs of engine torque with just a Tune that you can take to the streets,the strip and places like auto cross and compete at a decent level but most of all just have fun! Thats the majority of what the Ecoboosts life will be out there on the streets a fun fast car. There will be people that will make this car into a monster with money tho i have no doubt with in 5 years there will be EcoBoost Mustangs doing 10's at the strip no doubt what so ever!!! Why? Because it has the design for it and it will have the aftermarket support for it. Like it or not! Will it be the ULTIMATE PERFORMANCE MACHINE' probably not but neither is a GT. You keep mentioning why not buy the real thing? What is the real thing? so it has to have 8 cylinders to be the real thing? Tell that to the guy driving a GT on the interstate with his loud music playing ,chest all puffed out ''ya i got the 5.0 v8 dude'' everything else is inferior but wait then all of a sudden GODZILLA pulls up next to him! He's got this tho right? that thing is only a 6 cylinder. Ya a 6 cylinder Nissan GTR and it just stomped the sh$t out of his car!!! My point is there will always be someone faster and it dosent matter how many cylinders are under the hood ,different strokes for different folks theres more then one way to make power and have a fun fast car! I just prefer to do it with a Turbo 4 that gets amazing fuel economy and cheaper insurance and if i want to build it up of over the years into something really fast it has that potential and i can throw money at it here and there to get it there... without spending $80k on a car up front!

I think you pretty much nailed it. I have the money to buy a GT, or even a GT350, if I so desired, but I bought an EcoBoost for the same reasons you mentioned.

I love V8s, especially in Mustangs like everyone else, but I also love my turbo 4. Over the coming years, I can build it to be as fast as I want plus it's cheaper on insurance and gets great gas mileage. Saving some cash with the EBM doesn't stress my finances, allows more money for future upgrades, and is still plenty fun to drive. The magazines have even raved about the handling of the EBM seeing how it's 200lbs lighter in the front end, so there's that too.

Anything with money can be fast, some not even with that much money lol. I've had several 10/11 second DSMs that'd take a GT500's lunch money all day, but at the end of day, it's all personal preference. Just because one person prefers one thing doesn't negate or make something another person prefers wrong. That's why Ford makes more than one trim level. Heck, I wouldn't personally want the V6, but there's plenty of people that do and that's fine. I'm not gonna act like they've got little penises because of it. Maybe it's just because their priorities, finances, etc., are different!?

At the end of the day, all that matters is that you like driving what you bought and that you love your car.

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[TheZman]

I think you pretty much nailed it. I have the money to buy a GT, or even a GT350, if I so desired, but I bought an EcoBoost for the same reasons you mentioned.

I love V8s, especially in Mustangs like everyone else, but I also love my turbo 4. Over the coming years, I can build it to be as fast as I want plus it's cheaper on insurance and gets great gas mileage. Saving some cash with the EBM doesn't stress my finances, allows more money for future upgrades, and is still plenty fun to drive. The magazines have even raved about the handling of the EBM seeing how it's 200lbs lighter in the front end, so there's that too.

Anything with money can be fast, some not even with that much money lol. I've had several 10/11 second DSMs that'd take a GT500's lunch money all day, but at the end of day, it's all personal preference. Just because one person prefers one thing doesn't negate or make something another person prefers wrong. That's why Ford makes more than one trim level. Heck, I wouldn't personally want the V6, but there's plenty of people that do and that's fine. I'm not gonna act like they've got little penises because of it. Maybe it's just because their priorities, finances, etc., are different!?

At the end of the day, all that matters is that you like driving what you bought and that you love your car.

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Exactly!

 

[LeonBorden]

Calling a GT500 the ultimate performance machine is extremely naive. I bought an ecoboost because it's he best car and best bang for the buck around the 25 to 28k range. If I was spending 35k or so, there's no way I'd be in a GT as there are better options IMO for the money. Keep in mind, there are plenty of people who think your 55k GT500 is a poor mans car... It's all a matter of ones own financial state that determines their perception. Personally I just love playing with turbos.

 

[Juben]

Personally I just love playing with turbos.

Me too! I was too poor to afford a Mustang like I wanted in my late teens/early twenties, so I got into DSMs. You could make them wicked fast for next to nothing and hurt almost any V8s feelings that you wanted to. Over those years, I didn't lose my love for Mustangs or V8s, but I gained mucho love for turbo 4s and surprising the pants off of people when their big, scary V8s got outran by a little fire breathing 4 banger, lol. It was just a lot of fun to me and I made a lot of friends over the years with those cars.


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[JJ@WMS]

So, everyone thinks you need 420 RWTQ to break a rod? When do they start bending? When does a piston fail? The rods are light and thin. The pistons, despite their oil squirters, steel ring package and special coating, are cast. Never once have I read that they were forged.

It is very hard to quantify when and how an engine will fail.

Mike

The rods are not light and thin, they are powder metal cracked rods and trust me they wont bend, they will snap like a toothpick once they see any signs of detonation under boost.

I've been dealing with these same rods for almost 15 years in the Ford Lightning and one thing that takes them out is high load and detonation. It doesnt come down to a power limit persay.

Case in point, a stock block Ford lightning that is supercharged will snap its rods running a larger then stock supercharger at higher boost because that larger supercharger has a bigger "hit" when the boost comes in. Now take that same truck and put a turbo on it. That power comes in much easier and doesnt have such a "hit" so the rods last longer. The fastest stock block Lightning ran a turbo on the stock block to power levels unheard of with a supercharged Lightning.

Its detonation that kills these rods, plain and simple.

JJ

 

[LeonBorden]

^Best post so far in this thread

 

[JJ@WMS]

I was asked to come in and chime, I really don't have much time to read the full thread but I was told people were getting scared their motors are going to fail soon as they hit 400tq.

I will tell you right now, that is not the case. We have made 236 dyno pulls on our EBM mustang and it only has 500 miles on it, about 50 of those were driven on the street. I'm pretty comfortable saying that 90% of those dyno pulls were over 400ft/lbs of torque.

I can say safely that the stock turbo is maxed out at 330whp and 420wtq. Any gains to be had over that will require intercooler and intercooler piping, which as some of you know we are developing now and posted updates today. The car cannot safely make over 330whp and push over 25psi with the stock intercooler. Our car was seeing 150°+ charge air temps (NOT AIR INTAKE TEMPS) during a pull, which is causing the car to restrict power. With the intercooler upgrade you will see gains from keeping charge temps down definitely but you are mostly going to see those gains before the hp/tq crossover.

Once we finalize all bolt ons that can be utilized with the factory turbo, we will be throwing our turbo kit on the car and looking to see what we can do with the stock block safely. So no need to be scared, you aren't going to be windowing your block anytime soon if you choose your upgrade path wisely.

A lot of tuners are new to this platform and definitely need to be aware that this ECU does not follow standard tuning protocol. There are MANY compensation tables that the ECU pulls from during wide open throttle, you have to be very careful when tuning timing that is for sure! Cobb allows for very thorough tuning, I hope SCT offers similar maps for the end users sake.

Are taking a shot at SCT?.(if you werent I apologize but it seemed that way to me). So far some of the fastest cars (ours included) are SCT Tuned. Mid 12's is already proven with SCT tuned cars with simple bolt ons. I havent seen a single Cobb tuned vehicle in the 12's, if so please enlighten me.

Also is yours a loaded or unloaded Dynojet?

JJ

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