Stock Rod Limit

[TheZman]

Just remember the Ford Racing warranty doesn't last too long. It's only 3 years and 36k miles.

Thats all the FORD factory warranty last too! But lets be honest once you start modding performance cars for big power things can go wrong. Ask drag racers there blowing up and repairing crap all the time. Pay to play no matter what engine your running! Name of the power game.

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[EcoSwag1990]

The way this post has been stated is making it sound like the EBs limits have been found without buying their upgrades. When in reality it was 29.5 psi and no torque managemt and we still don't know what temps were

 

[Billy1]

Thanks for posting, as this is valuable info for anyone considering a tune/bigger turbo.

 

[dgc333]

That seems like not that much power to be losing a rod that comes forged from the factory.!

I have been a hot rodder for 40 years and every single engine I have ever worked on had forged rods. Some have been very very strong and others not so much. The strength of a rod is more a function of the design and alloy they are made of.

 

[dgc333]

I don't think a rod breaking with more than 100 extra ft/lbs of torque over stock is a huge surprise
Well I should say I'm not surprised

It's a lot more than 100 ft-lbs. The EB puts down about 280 ft-lbs at the wheels. 420 at the wheels is 140 more than stock.

 

[BGolden]

Here's the thing, this was a stock turbo with a stock FMIC. Even on race gas, that's nuts to run that much boost on that tiny little turbo as that's way out of it's efficiency range. I'd bet that charge air temps was through the roof, and you can't control detonation like that. Wow...

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The turbo is not out of its efficiency range at 3200, its out of its range at 5500 when power falls off. We had no detonation issues. We had a rod let go due to too much torque.

Any pics?

Yes they will be up loaded later on. Most likely next week as we have customer cars to attend to tonight.

I want to thank RIP Tuning for bringing this information to light. Although I am dissapointed to see how some of our fellow forum members are treating this as a marketing ploy.

No one wants to show off a blown motor, it takes guts to let everyone know.

With such a small turbo this was bound to happen, I am more than confident that with a larger turbo and smoother torque curve that the stock rods will take more abuse.

My only question is what dyno do you guys have, if it was not mentioned before?

Thank you

Thank you. We are here to share info. I know there are other motors that have been lost but we are not here to hide when stuff breaks, but help find solutions.

I agree a larger turbo will create less stress on the block but we were pushing the stock one to its limits. Guess what we found them :lol:

We have a Dynocom AWD dyno that works both AWD and 2wd. It does read 5% lower than most dyno jets as it is a loaded dyno.

Exactly. At those boost levels, it was way outside of it's efficiency range and blowing nothing but super heated air. Combine that with the crappy stock FMIC and it's a receipt for disaster. I'd love to see the logs from that run!

I also agree that it takes balls to step up and acknowledge a blown engine, so props to RIP for that.

I think it's important to remember that this stock turbo was being pushed way beyond its limits. I really don't think this is going to be an issue at or near stock boost levels on the stock turbo or even with an upgraded turbo. The FMIC would need be addressed too, but that's best left for another discussion.

The FoST cars have VERY similar rods and are beyond 400+ whp without issues. I really think it was heat related issues leading to detonation which caused this. Even race gas can only help so much!

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Its not the horsepower that is the issue its the torque. AIT's were 106. That is not hot. It was 70 degrees in the shop. So at 29 psi 30 degrees is not a big deal.

This is the first time this happened.. Plenty of others out there tuning this car as well with no issues. It might even be an anomaly. you dont know. Dont jump to conclusions just yet also let FORD do there thing as well.

There are others that have lost engines. We are just sharing our findings.

The way this post has been stated is making it sound like the EBs limits have been found without buying their upgrades. When in reality it was 29.5 psi and no torque managemt and we still don't know what temps were

AIT's were 106. This is our race tune and its not for the public. It was for our shop car.

 

[dgc333]

Thats all the FORD factory warranty last too! But lets be honest once you start modding performance cars for big power things can go wrong. Ask drag racers there blowing up and repairing crap all the time. Pay to play no matter what engine your running! Name of the power game.

The powertrain warranty on my 15 EB is 5 years or 60k miles.

 

[TheZman]

I have been a hot rodder for 40 years and every single engine I have ever worked on had forged rods. Some have been very very strong and others not so much. The strength of a rod is more a function of the design and alloy they are made of.

I just have a hard time believing FORD put weak rods in this car! Especially when its going to be like the ST with all kinds of performance goodies coming out this year for it from FORD. Even if you listen to them in interviews they talk about how amazing it is and really shine the light on it! If it wasnt design to be modded they would not be coming out with a tune for it thats going to be upward of 33% torque increase. I have faith in this engine especially after seeing what the 2.0 in the ST can do and this 2.3 is even better yet!

 

[dgc333]

One comment; no one knows where the limit of the EB motor is except Ford. You can't make any judgement based on one rod breaking until that rod and the other three in the engine are examined by some one that can understand the failure mechanism and determine whether the design limits were exceeded or it was a rod with a manufacturing defect.

 

[TheZman]

The powertrain warranty on my 15 EB is 5 years or 60k miles.

Oops ya your right..Lol i must have been thinking of a different warranty.

 

[LeonBorden]

Anybody who thinks Its a marketing ploy is a fool firstly... Hey, don't buy our stuff because the motor can't ha for it anyways... Not too smart. These guys are just trying to help. It is odd it blew so easily though. I really expected chipped Pistons or broke ring lands before the rods broke.

 

[TheZman]

One comment; no one knows where the limit of the EB motor is except Ford. You can't make any judgement based on one rod breaking until that rod and the other three in the engine are examined by some one that can understand the failure mechanism and determine whether the design limits were exceeded or it was a rod with a manufacturing defect.

Thats kinda what ive been saying. FORD designed this engine and knows its limits and they know things about it that nobody else does because they created it. Everybody else trying to get more power out of it is doing it at the same time there learning about it! Not really a safe combination. Part of the reason FORD frowns on most aftermarket company's .. Im guessing FORD knows the best and safe way to make power out of it more then any tunning company will. I actually talked to FORD racing online today. They said they are very excited about this engine and have big things planned for it! There Tune will be out around the 3rd quarter of this year! Im not sweating this!

 

[Evil87GN]

I think what Juben was asking is what were the inlet temps going into the intake...post IC....if you were data logging that parameter. 106 inlet temp going into the turbo is still pretty warm, if the ambient was 70. If you still have the stock IC, then I would guess you were at or exceeding 200* at the manifold. What was the boost level at the failure rpm? These factory turbos build boost very rapidly, but their efficiency range is also very limited, and falls off rapidly above 22-23 psi. If you were pumping 29 psi out of the factory turbo, I agree with Juben...that turbo was pumping HOT air. We had similar issues back in the day when pushing the stock turbo hard on our turbo Buicks. Start pushing too hard, and it would cost you a head gasket..lol.

Were you tracking the EGT by chance? That's one parameter that I haven't seen any data on yet, and is pretty critical in the tuning of a turbo car.

 

[MAPerformance]

I was asked to come in and chime, I really don't have much time to read the full thread but I was told people were getting scared their motors are going to fail soon as they hit 400tq.

I will tell you right now, that is not the case. We have made 236 dyno pulls on our EBM mustang and it only has 500 miles on it, about 50 of those were driven on the street. I'm pretty comfortable saying that 90% of those dyno pulls were over 400ft/lbs of torque.

I can say safely that the stock turbo is maxed out at 330whp and 420wtq. Any gains to be had over that will require intercooler and intercooler piping, which as some of you know we are developing now and posted updates today. The car cannot safely make over 330whp and push over 25psi with the stock intercooler. Our car was seeing 150°+ charge air temps (NOT AIR INTAKE TEMPS) during a pull, which is causing the car to restrict power. With the intercooler upgrade you will see gains from keeping charge temps down definitely but you are mostly going to see those gains before the hp/tq crossover.

Once we finalize all bolt ons that can be utilized with the factory turbo, we will be throwing our turbo kit on the car and looking to see what we can do with the stock block safely. So no need to be scared, you aren't going to be windowing your block anytime soon if you choose your upgrade path wisely.

A lot of tuners are new to this platform and definitely need to be aware that this ECU does not follow standard tuning protocol. There are MANY compensation tables that the ECU pulls from during wide open throttle, you have to be very careful when tuning timing that is for sure! Cobb allows for very thorough tuning, I hope SCT offers similar maps for the end users sake.

 

[TheZman]

I was asked to come in and chime, I really don't have much time to read the full thread but I was told people were getting scared their motors are going to fail soon as they hit 400tq.

I will tell you right now, that is not the case. We have made 236 dyno pulls on our EBM mustang and it only has 500 miles on it, about 50 of those were driven on the street. I'm pretty comfortable saying that 90% of those dyno pulls were over 400ft/lbs of torque.

I can say safely that the stock turbo is maxed out at 330whp and 420wtq. Any gains to be had over that will require intercooler and intercooler piping, which as some of you know we are developing now and posted updates today. The car cannot safely make over 330whp and push over 25psi with the stock intercooler. Our car was seeing 150°+ charge air temps (NOT AIR INTAKE TEMPS) during a pull, which is causing the car to restrict power. With the intercooler upgrade you will see gains from keeping charge temps down definitely but you are mostly going to see those gains before the hp/tq crossover.

Once we finalize all bolt ons that can be utilized with the factory turbo, we will be throwing our turbo kit on the car and looking to see what we can do with the stock block safely. So no need to be scared, you aren't going to be windowing your block anytime soon if you choose your upgrade path wisely.

A lot of tuners are new to this platform and definitely need to be aware that this ECU does not follow standard tuning protocol. There are MANY compensation tables that the ECU pulls from during wide open throttle, you have to be very careful when tuning timing that is for sure! Cobb allows for very thorough tuning, I hope SCT offers similar maps for the end users sake.

AMEN!!! Not that this is the main point but honestly anybody planning to do any big mods to ANY turbo car should upgrade the Intercooler as one of there first Mods!

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