Why not a 5.9L Coyote?

[Rick#7]

I got caught up watching a bunch of engine build and swapping videos which just fueled my already active daydreaming sessions. After seeing vid after vid of people doing budget junkyard Godzilla builds, and pulling 600+ HP & TQ on a dyno with little more than a cam and long tube headers, I started wondering about the swap possibilities to the S550 chassis, but eventually I concluded that the coyote is simply a superior foundation for making big power while maintaining some semblance of efficiency (thank you Ti-VCT). Comparing stock to stock of the newest versions, the coyote already makes more HP than the 7.3L, and torque isn't too far behind, the only catch is it comes on at higher rpm. So, all of this got me thinking, why bother spending all the time and money to develop an all new engine family when you already have a very adaptable, proven, and reliable engine in production with all the tooling needed already in place to make any variation? Wasn't the whole point of designing a modular engine family to be able to cheaply and easily change up the block configuration to make any displacement engine to fit the needs of multiple vehicle applications? Imagine for second, you're an exec at Ford and you need an engine that makes serious off idle power for the heavy duty trucks. You already have an engine that makes serious power while still pulling down 20+mpg on the highway, but it's small displacement limits how much you can get at low rpm without forced induction. So rather than taking advantage of the modular casting design you already have to make a tall deck predator block, and pop in a 4.165" stroke crankshaft (ala 5.4L triton), which ends up being nearly 5.9L in displacement (technically 5.87L), you decide it's better to design and retool for a completely different and new engine? I just don't get the logic here. Don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking the godzilla motor. In fact, if someone cracks the swap obstacles to make a bolt in kit that keeps all the electronic controls and features of the S550 in tact, I'd be all over it, but how cool would it be to get that 5.9L tall deck predator? Top it off with the same coyote heads that are already making 500 HP on a production 5.0, how much torque would that make with 4.165" of leverage from the crank to work with? I can't help but think this engine would easily fill the needs that they built the godzilla to handle. I think this could easily be a 600HP NA engine. Beyond that, if that engine actually went into production, we'd have a 5.9L production block available from Ford Performance to use for gen2 and gen3 coyote custom builds compatible with the factory pcm in our cars with nothing more than a tune. Like I said, lots of daydreaming on my part!! LOL

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[robvas]

the only catch is it comes on at higher rpm.

You already answered your own question. And 7.3 > 5.9. The torque advantage would remain. Also the 'leverage from the crank' is a myth.

Not to mention it's cheaper to build, less parts, etc. And you can't really rebuild a coyote without re-sleeving it, they didn't have to resort to things like direct injection, which just decrease reliability and increase expenses.

The question might be, why didn't they make the 6.2 V8 bigger/better?

 

[sk47]

Hello; A 5.9 liter is close to a 350 cu in displacement. A number of 350 cu in range V8's have been made by Ford over the decades. I also watch video & TV shows about engine builds. However very few to none about coyote builds. I do not recall other than videos about how a Coyote works or some repair or what broke.
First I think Ford may have pretty much squeezed out of a 300 cu in block about all the HP/Torque which can reasonably gotten. A charm of the 5.0 Coyote is the power to cu in ratio which is impressive. But to your question.
First thing is the onerous & expensive process required by regulatory agencies to get an engine family certified for legal sale. These certification requirements have cut down drastically the engine options available. Many manufacturers resort to using an engine across the entire line of vehicles rather than offering a variety of engines. Point being the bean counters would likely balk at certifying two high-performance V8's for use in the mustang & maybe the F-150's.

Next thing is something would have to give in the arrangement of the heads & block. Maybe the block has enough space to hog out bigger holes but I do not know. Back a few decades the 351 W & the 351 C were of similar displacement. The story as i recall it was the 351 C could not be bored out over stock. So while the 351 C was the more desirable engine of the time the 351W was more practical to own & rebuild.
I suspect the key would be if the blocks between the current 5.0 and your dream 5.8 could start out identical. I just do not know.
But if Ford wanted to spend the money, I am somewhat confident the engine could be made.

 

[robvas]

Hello; A 5.9 liter is close to a 350 cu in displacement.

Chevy 350 = 5.7 (347)
Ford 351 = 5.8 (353)
Dodge 360 = 5.9 (360)

Numbers are all tweaked by marketing of course. Ford called the 302 Windsor a 5.0 when it's really 4.94 liters, the 305 SBC was a 5.0 and 4.99 liters...

Next thing is something would have to give in the arrangement of the heads & block. Maybe the block has enough space to hog out bigger holes but I do not know. Back a few decades the 351 W & the 351 C were of similar displacement. The story as i recall it was the 351 C could not be bored out over stock. So while the 351 C was the more desirable engine of the time the 351W was more practical to own & rebuild.

You can't really bore the Coyote any bigger. Bore spacing is too narrow.

 

[sabasigh]

The question might be, why didn't they make the 6.2 V8 bigger/better?

dang shame the 6.2 was basically abandoned by Ford.
Is Ford's 6.2L "Boss" Better than a Coyote or Godzilla? The Unsung Hero of Blue Oval Performance!
Ford's Modern Day 427 SOHC Cammer..

maybe at the end of the day its size is really only suited for trucks/drag racing...

 

[petronix]

FWIW. My 2002 Lincoln Blackwood came from the factory with a 5.4 L 32 valve motor. This is basically a detuned 2002 Cobra R motor. It also came in Lincoln Navigators.

I wonder why Ford went smaller...

 

[Sparky1337]

Common misconception about the terminology for the “modular” Mod motors.

It was never meant to refer to modularity of the motors themselves, but the tooling in the factory to easily change things up and manufacture something else in the engine family.

 

[robvas]

FWIW. My 2002 Lincoln Blackwood came from the factory with a 5.4 L 32 valve motor. This is basically a detuned 2002 Cobra R motor. It also came in Lincoln Navigators.

I wonder why Ford went smaller...

Taller/wider than the already huge 4.6/5.0

Even with Carillo rods it only revved to 6600rpm. The larger 5.8 in the GT500 had an even lower redline, but would allow "overrev" for a few seconds to 7,000

The Coyote is just getting warmed up at 6,600rpm

 

[engineermike]

On the 6.2, Brian Wolfe was in the middle of the decision to kill it. He explained it in surprising detail in his interview with PBD. Basically the 6.2 had fallen behind the competition in output so they were slated to update it but they decided to replace it instead. Cost was a factor but I don’t remember details.

On the coyote, I was hot on the idea of of increasing displacement a few years ago. You could maybe get 5.35L out of it without messing up the pin location vs oil ring too bad. The rod/stroke ratio gets worse because you have to shorten the rod while increasing stroke. Ultimately, it because clear why Ford stopped at 5.2.

 

[robvas]

The other rumor is the Godzilla was pushed as a pet project by someone who then retired and wanted to start an aftermarket parts company for it

 

[Hack]

Ford should make a V10 version of the Coyote. That would be 6.25 liters or so. They could detune it a little and still make 600 hp.

 

[OldbutNew]

Ford should make a V10 version of the Coyote. That would be 6.25 liters or so. They could detune it a little and still make 600 hp.

We did make one. But it was Modular family.

After this engine inspired 3 concept cars, corporate politics killed it.

 

[9secondko]

I got caught up watching a bunch of engine build and swapping videos which just fueled my already active daydreaming sessions. After seeing vid after vid of people doing budget junkyard Godzilla builds, and pulling 600+ HP & TQ on a dyno with little more than a cam and long tube headers, I started wondering about the swap possibilities to the S550 chassis, but eventually I concluded that the coyote is simply a superior foundation for making big power while maintaining some semblance of efficiency (thank you Ti-VCT). Comparing stock to stock of the newest versions, the coyote already makes more HP than the 7.3L, and torque isn't too far behind, the only catch is it comes on at higher rpm. So, all of this got me thinking, why bother spending all the time and money to develop an all new engine family when you already have a very adaptable, proven, and reliable engine in production with all the tooling needed already in place to make any variation? Wasn't the whole point of designing a modular engine family to be able to cheaply and easily change up the block configuration to make any displacement engine to fit the needs of multiple vehicle applications? Imagine for second, you're an exec at Ford and you need an engine that makes serious off idle power for the heavy duty trucks. You already have an engine that makes serious power while still pulling down 20+mpg on the highway, but it's small displacement limits how much you can get at low rpm without forced induction. So rather than taking advantage of the modular casting design you already have to make a tall deck predator block, and pop in a 4.165" stroke crankshaft (ala 5.4L triton), which ends up being nearly 5.9L in displacement (technically 5.87L), you decide it's better to design and retool for a completely different and new engine? I just don't get the logic here. Don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking the godzilla motor. In fact, if someone cracks the swap obstacles to make a bolt in kit that keeps all the electronic controls and features of the S550 in tact, I'd be all over it, but how cool would it be to get that 5.9L tall deck predator? Top it off with the same coyote heads that are already making 500 HP on a production 5.0, how much torque would that make with 4.165" of leverage from the crank to work with? I can't help but think this engine would easily fill the needs that they built the godzilla to handle. I think this could easily be a 600HP NA engine. Beyond that, if that engine actually went into production, we'd have a 5.9L production block available from Ford Performance to use for gen2 and gen3 coyote custom builds compatible with the factory pcm in our cars with nothing more than a tune. Like I said, lots of daydreaming on my part!! LOL

Ford can totally make a large displacement modular. But they need to revisit the foundations first. Otherwise, the block will get too wide and/or tall due to the OHC nature of the design.

I'd love to see it. They should bring back the 351. Heck, a 390 would be amazing. But that would require a testosterone injection in the current boardroom scenario. Hopefully the new Grand Sport Corvette and the upcoming Camaro give them incentive to rethink current direction.

If anyone can make a large displacement OHC V8 that makes big power and is very reliable, it's Ford.

Now if they'd just do that and EcoBoost/powerboost the thing, we'd really be talking.

 

[Rick#7]

We did make one. But it was Modular family.

After this engine inspired 3 concept cars, corporate politics killed it.

Well the coyote is still in the modular family. There's not too much interchange with the 4.6 that preceded it, but that was never the point of the modular design. It was all about production tooling and casting. All of the modular engines share the same bore spacing, making it possible to use the same tooling to machine the blocks of several different displacements. The modular aspect of the engine family has to do with the casting molds, which could easily be configured to make short deck blocks or taller decks, V8's or V10's or even a V12 if they wanted to, which I believe they did a prototype but didn't make it to production. However a V10 version of the tall deck 5.4L was a production engine under the Triton name for heavy duty trucks. It displaced 6.8L, and it was also a modular family engine. That was the origination of my 1st post. The coyote is the most advanced and most powerful incarnation of the modular line. That being the case, it would be very easy for Ford to make a tall deck version with longer stroke. The beauty of that option is they wouldn't have to produce new heads, there's already great flowing heads in production that would easily support the power levels they targeted for the godzilla,, but another option just as easy to bring to production would be a V10 version of either the coyote, or an n/a version of the predator that would be 6.5L. They could take the cam timing and a long runner intake from the F150 version of the coyote to drastically reduce research and development costs, and this V10 would put out at least 500 HP and well over 500 lb-ft, easily beating the godzilla's power numbers even with less displacement. Factor in the Ti-VCT systems ability to enhance efficiency when it's not under load, and I'm sure the mpg would embarrass the godzilla's numbers in that category as well.

I get that the godzilla is a simpler design, making it cheaper to produce once the design and tooling costs are amortized, but the Ti-VCT system from the coyote is a masterpiece, it's been around long enough that any bugs or reliability issues have already been addressed, and it is simply impossible to get the same kind of cam timing manipulation with a single cam-in-block set up. That is IMO the biggest advantage the coyote has over the many larger engines it competes against in the market, and why it usually wins in those comparisons.

 

[zackmd1]

Again, like others have said, the coyote platform can only top out around 5.4L before a major rework would have to occur to get more displacement.

My personal opinion…. I’d take the Godzilla over a Coyote any day. Simplicity is not to be underestimated. It’s impressive what Ford has been able to accomplish with the Coyote but it’s an extremely complicated engine pushed to the absolute limits to get that HP. The Godzilla is just getting started at its stock HP. Just a cam gets 600+hp as you said. Imagine a higher RPM focused head and intake design… 700HP N.A. on pump gas without direct injection.

Your comment about torque is wildly inaccurate…. Peak torque might be somewhat close but the Godzilla is making more torque at 2K rpm then the coyote ever makes in stock form. Those Godzillas with a cam are making over 500tq at 2k rpm. The coyote needs a blower to even get close to that.

So everyone has their personal preference, you can like the coyote or Godzilla. Either is valid, moral of the story though is the coyote is at its limit without a complete redesign…

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