TDStuart Tuning Adventure

[tdstuart]

Shift are anticipated.

The commanded gear change will occur shortly before the target so that the shift happen at the target.

You made it seem like it was way off, this is dead on OSS.

So you are looking at the oss in the middle of the shift? I would of thought it would be at the commanded change or at the start of the rpm drop.

Sponsored

 

[tdstuart]

@markmurfie Commanded the imrc to always open to test MP17. Same issue with it just being a bad cam angle for making any usable power. On the other end of the spectrum I tried MP25 which has a corresponding MP12 for IMRC closed, they have high cam overlap that you would use in something like a WOT situation. Car was making way more power at part throttle on MP25 than MP17.

Logs attached. Which MP would you recommend I start tuning with? I don't care that much about mpg but if I can save some money, that would be nice.

I also messed with some trans shifting settings. Attached 3 logs. The main improvement I was trying to test was transmission shifting times especially in SST mode. The 1st to 2nd shift is really good but the rest of the upshifts can be slow especially when not wot. The downshifts started acting very weird. Instead of the car downshifting then engine breaking, the car is trying to engine break to drop the rpm and then shift. It's pretty bad when doing a 2-1 dowshift. Any thoughts on this?

S4 tune - Has transmission changes
S5 tune - Stock Transmission settings (for the most part), locked imrc, set to MP25 at non idle and non wot situations.

Tunes and logs attached.

 

[K4fxd]

Commanded the imrc to always open to test MP17. Same issue with it just being a bad cam angle for making any usable power.

At this point in your tuning you are not tuning for power. You are trying to make the calculated manifold pressure match actual. You need to do this for every MP you are going to use, THEN you tune for power.

 

[tdstuart]

At this point in your tuning you are not tuning for power. You are trying to make the calculated manifold pressure match actual. You need to do this for every MP you are going to use, THEN you tune for power.

Of course

Im not tuning for power.

I don’t see the point in tuning a mapped point that I will never use. MP17 is so slow it takes about a quarter mile to get to 50mph. It’s not a mapped point that would be used often besides as maybe a transition point, and low speed holding (it doesn’t have enough power to hold speed at higher speeds) and I don’t know how easy it will be to tune.

I would rather start off with a mapped point that I would use in most drive situations and expand from there.

 

[engineermike]

At this point in your tuning you are not tuning for power. You are trying to make the calculated manifold pressure match actual. You need to do this for every MP you are going to use, THEN you tune for power.

This!!!! The 40/50 cam timing of mp17 is never going to feel strong; with stock cams and especially aftermarket. 40/50 only exists for fuel economy. Notice when ford commands 40/50….only at light load/cruise.

In post 852 I said you shouldn’t even be using 40/50 due to the super late IVC of the comp cams. I said to set up a mapped point at 25/50, tune it, and use that for cruise instead of the 40/50 points. That sets the IVC up the same as stock for cruise. I don’t think markmurfie even disagreed with this timing suggestion.

 

[tdstuart]

This!!!! The 40/50 cam timing of mp17 is never going to feel strong; with stock cams and especially aftermarket. 40/50 only exists for fuel economy. Notice when ford commands 40/50….only at light load/cruise.

In post 852 I said you shouldn’t even be using 40/50 due to the super late IVC of the comp cams. I said to set up a mapped point at 25/50, tune it, and use that for cruise instead of the 40/50 points. That sets the IVC up the same as stock for cruise. I don’t think markmurfie even disagreed with this timing suggestion.

It’s not that it’s not strong, it’s that it’s not usable and I’m wondering if I should start with a point that makes more power that is actually drivable.

25/50 might work better.

I think you guys seem to think I disagree with you. If you drove on MP17 you would see what I mean about not wanting to start tuning it. I’m not trying to tune for wot power and have never stated that

Are you suggesting I lock imrc open and overwrite a mapped point to 25/50?

 

[engineermike]

25/50 might work better.

It will. 15 deg earlier IVC will trap more charge and achieve higher loads.

Are you suggesting I lock imrc open and overwrite a mapped point to 25/50?

My opinion is that 25/50 should be tuned with imrc closed. Markmurfie says it should be tuned for both. He’s not wrong but I was prioritizing reducing the mapped point count. Another option is to totally forget about imrc-closed and tune everything for open. This way you could cut it down to about 4-5 total mapped points active and sacrifice a little fuel economy.

To achieve 25/50 you have a couple of options. You could move a nearby point (mp18 30/50?) to 25/50 or you could revamp the whole numbering system as I described before. This is what I did in my car and a few others have as well.

 

[tdstuart]

It will. 15 deg earlier IVC will trap more charge and achieve higher loads.



My opinion is that 25/50 should be tuned with imrc closed. Markmurfie says it should be tuned for both. He’s not wrong but I was prioritizing reducing the mapped point count. Another option is to totally forget about imrc-closed and tune everything for open. This way you could cut it down to about 4-5 total mapped points active and sacrifice a little fuel economy.

To achieve 25/50 you have a couple of options. You could move a nearby point (mp18 30/50?) to 25/50 or you could revamp the whole numbering system as I described before. This is what I did in my car and a few others have as well.

So if you were to setup the mapped points how would you do it and what order would you tune them in

 

[markmurfie]

@markmurfie Commanded the imrc to always open to test MP17. Same issue with it just being a bad cam angle for making any usable power. On the other end of the spectrum I tried MP25 which has a corresponding MP12 for IMRC closed, they have high cam overlap that you would use in something like a WOT situation. Car was making way more power at part throttle on MP25 than MP17.

Logs attached. Which MP would you recommend I start tuning with? I don't care that much about mpg but if I can save some money, that would be nice.

I also messed with some trans shifting settings. Attached 3 logs. The main improvement I was trying to test was transmission shifting times especially in SST mode. The 1st to 2nd shift is really good but the rest of the upshifts can be slow especially when not wot. The downshifts started acting very weird. Instead of the car downshifting then engine breaking, the car is trying to engine break to drop the rpm and then shift. It's pretty bad when doing a 2-1 dowshift. Any thoughts on this?

S4 tune - Has transmission changes
S5 tune - Stock Transmission settings (for the most part), locked imrc, set to MP25 at non idle and non wot situations.

Tunes and logs attached.

These are not good logs with enough data to see anything from. That applies to all the previous logs as well. You will learn tuning comes down to how well you can log the data to tune from, and it's a bunch of driving techniques similar to the RPM step logs in neutral most tuners have people do to verify their base tune.

You need to focus on holding RPM steady at a chosen value 1250, 1500, 1750, 2000 ect. and varying the throttle so MAP changes from low to high at that RPM. This is best done in high gears at various speeds that achieve the desired RPM. when you get to higher RPMs using lower gears is needed but it becomes harder to hold RPM and vary throttle in those gears as the car will accelerate so high speeds/ open roads may be needed. Really its safest to do this stuff on a dyno, but its exactly the same thing you are trying to collect just driving on the road not a roller. longer logs will have more data, and that's better. While driving you have to focus on driving, but you should have a set of targets you are trying to achieve before the end of your drive. Then just let the log collect that data.

I would be fine with tuning MP5 and MP 17.
If you want to start tuning MP 0 and 14 the base 0,0 angles that would be fine too. You just need to collect all the data in logs.

Now I have these targets for what I want in a log in my head, but realize newer people to tuning may not be as in their head space about what's going on. So what I propose is to set up a graph like the following. and look over at how its filling out as you drive along. Note this filters out MP17% above 75%, and doesn't populate a cell until it has been hit with 25 data points. You can play around with these thresholds as you see fit. As you can see there's not much to work with in this log. Yes, some cells will be physically impossible to reach.

This would be another way to set it up.

All of the transmission stuff only makes sense once you understand engine torque tuning. The value of torque the ECU thinks the engine is making and modulating this value from one gear to another. disabling torque based shifting to achieve the target shift points easier is a common practice. This makes the paddle shifts not operate properly at all. If you are having issues it's because your engine torque control is having issues and needs to be tuned. Get the engine tuning figured out.

 

[engineermike]

So if you were to setup the mapped points how would you do it and what order would you tune them in

First, tell me if you want to try to retain imrc functionality. And, do you want to prioritize reducing the number of mapped points over fuel economy?

 

[Pistol_91]

Simply changing your cam angles for your cruise MP will increase your fuel economy. It's that simple.
At this point get rid of the IMRCs and revamp your tune to a 4 5 or 6 mapped points. I feel like that would be the easiest route since there seems to be so much confusion here. Or just pay someone. Lol

 

[GregO]

Or just pay someone. Lol

No one will take his money, he’s run out of people to pay. That’s why this thread exists….

 

[Pistol_91]

No one will take his money, he’s run out of people to pay. That’s why this thread exists…. Haha

LOL very true. Forgot about this. If it were me I'd sell the car and buy a stock one.

 

[engineermike]

You will learn tuning comes down to how well you can log the data to tune from

This 100%. Quality logging is critical to tuning.

it's a bunch of driving techniques similar to the RPM step logs...You need to focus on holding RPM steady at a chosen value 1250, 1500, 1750, 2000 ect. and varying the throttle so MAP changes from low to high at that RPM. This is best done in high gears at various speeds that achieve the desired RPM. ... but you should have a set of targets you are trying to achieve before the end of your drive.

Absolutely; this has been suggested at least a few times already in this thread.

I would be fine with tuning MP5 and MP 17.

The issue I see here is that these are 40/50 cam timing, which pushes IVC back 15 deg later than Ford ever even did, and Ford ran IVC very late already. If Ford saw no benefit running IVC so late, then I doubt there is any value there. And if there is no value, there's no point in running there and certainly no point in tuning there. This is why I was suggesting to set up a mapped point at 25/50, tune it, and use it for cruise. This at least gets the IVC back where Ford intended and will allow for loads higher than .4 at low rpm.

 

[tdstuart]

No one will take his money, he’s run out of people to pay. That’s why this thread exists….

I find this as a weird thing to say. I think plenty of people will take my money. I’m tired of spending hundreds of dollars on tuners who don’t care, can’t tune, and have terrible response times.

Why would I spend hundreds of dollars to try and find another tuner when I could just learn it myself.

Sponsored