Is it posible to loss traction with traction control on?

[Andy13186]

But those are the guys turning it off, to, as I said earlier try to become youtube superstars. As Norm said, they're driving well beyond their skillset, and/or the cars capabilities. The last HPDE course I took, the instructor used cars with all those nannies disabled. He said 'it's like the teacher giving you the answers.. you might get a A+, but your still a dumbass'.

Track is a bit of a different story, although personally knowing how unobtrusive it is I think I would leave advancetrac on atleast at my current skill level. Not trying to do Chris Harris drifts at this time. Especially not on the street lol.

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[WildHorse]

Track is a bit of a different story

Everything you learn at HPDE can directly translate to the street. I think everyone with a high performance car should take that course

 

[Norm Peterson]

After seeing that, I have no idea why anyone would want to turn off stability control while driving on a regular road.

You've been scared by a demonstration that was cherry-picked and carefully choreographed for maximum effect. With results obviously possible in a softly sprung sedan (and even more likely in an SUV) but doubtful in the extreme in any Mustang or comparable sporty car built in this century.

It rarely - if ever - happens out in the real street world. But the average Mustang is capable of serious levels of obstacle avoidance without electronic stability control. Anybody who's ever autocrossed one knows that, and that the car has more capability in it without AdvanceTrac than the average driver.

My '08 GT doesn't even have a stability control system for me to turn off, and on at least two occasions it's had to do a 65 mph slalom run through minefields of truck tire debris. Lots of lateral head toss on the part of passengers (heads bumped side glass during at least one such maneuver), but the car was nowhere near sliding or spinning out of control, or lifting any tires clear of the pavement.

I don't think anyone is going to be stupid enough to develop a driving aid system that makes things worse if the driver does what would be the correct thing to do without the driving aid system.

There may be some unavoidable consequences, which may or may not be system- or calibration-specific. My WRX will cut power and drag a brake if it thinks I'm calling for too much power while cornering (from driving with it turned off, I guarantee that Subaru's VDC gets way too nervous way too early). The potential downside is if it does this when you're about to come out of a tight entrance ramp into 65+ mph traffic . . . and you're left just rolling along with nobody awake in the engine room.

Basically, the calibration can be set too conservatively, and there may not be much else you can do about it besides shutting it off.


Norm

 

[Norm Peterson]

Everything you learn at HPDE can directly translate to the street. I think everyone with a high performance car should take that course

Exactly. HPDE, or at least instructed autocross. Street Survival is an excellent opportunity for those still in their teens.

The control techniques translate directly. Only that the street speeds are lower than in HPDE.


Norm

 

[boostmark]

Before I bought my car 727 Roush pp1 I watched a lot youtube vids of crashes and spin outs. The one that was most important to me is the one where the guy is driving a 1000hp Shelby Super Snake. The point is before you go full throttle you must go though a check list. 1 Has the road been dry for 24 hours? check
2 Is the road level and clear? check
3 Are you in 3 rd gear or above? check
Now you can go full throttle.
I find this to be true with my car as well and leaving stability control and traction control on will cause it to buck when the tires break loose. A bit unsettling but it can save you life. I think back when I was younger and would take my cars to empty known parking lots and zipping the car up to 50 and mash the gas and turning the wheel gives you an idea of how to handle a all out slide helped me learn how to drive a RWD car with a lot of power.
Just remember guys YOU CAN`T FIX STUPID and every day a video pops up to prove that point. Now do I turn these off sometimes? I think we all get stupid sometime just trying to have fun!

 

[Norm Peterson]

Testosterone filled guys want to show off for the camera, they dont let off the throttle no matter what, advancetrac forces that if its going bad and does save lives, keep it on. I know some may argue natural selection but innocents could get killed so IMO always leave advancetrac on on the streets. I learned the hard way. There is no valid argument to turn advancetrac off on the streets.

Flame not intended, but that's strictly a problem in self control. Seeing the red mist and not being able to back out of it. Being not psychologically ready to drive cars with however much performance potential.

My wife would be more subtle . . . "you've got to know your car".


Norm

 

[shogun32]

My wife would be more subtle . . . "you've got to know your car".

I prefer:

 

[Vlad Soare]

So, if I understand correctly, when a sudden loss of traction takes me by surprise I should do whatever common wisdom dictates for that specific situation, as if I had no electronic aids?

 

[WildHorse]

Exactly. HPDE, or at least instructed autocross. Street Survival is an excellent opportunity for those still in their teens.

I took that course right after I bought my Mustang. I knew I was a very good driver, the course taught me there was much much more to learn.

 

[Michael_vroomvroom]

If you know how to use the throttle & brake properly then your nannies should never come on in the first place. The only feature I'm grateful for is ABS on the street, due to varying conditions whereas at the track it's controlled conditions more or less so you need not rely on ABS. My buddies always tell me' yeah man.. then advancetrac kicked in and saved my ass', I tell em 'Nannies don't make you a good driver, if you were, then you wouldn't have needed it.' Anyways, if your doing stupid schitt, no amount of technology will save your arse. Just my opinion.

Do you mean the wildly exaggerated response of the car with stability control off means the driving instructor did not use the throttle and brake properly?

Hard left turn, hard right turn, almost nothing in between. What should he have done to use the throttle and brakes properly for the results to be similar with stability control off?

My impression was that stability control made the car behave considerably better while driven by a competent and obviously very well prepared driver.

Isn't there some statistics that says the average driver thinks he's considerably better than the average driver? I think I'm better than the average driver too, but until I get any kind of respectable #rank in at least the local car racing to indicate it's all not just in my mind, I think the smart thing is to leave most driving aids on for myself while on the street. My first name is Michael, but my last name is not Schumacher.

Would have loved to do some of the "safe driving" tasks that day at least partially in my Mustang though, since that's what I drive daily. Asked if it was possible, but he said no. Said they used to let people bring their own cars a long time ago, but had too many problems with that, so no longer allowed.

 

[WildHorse]

My impression was that stability control made the car behave considerably better while driven by a competent and obviously very well prepared driver.

Sigh.. take your car to a huge empty parking lot after a rain (or snow), get up to a decent speed and give you car a hard left or right turn (like someone trying to avoid a crash) with all the nannies on. Then go ask a HPDE instructor what the proper way to do it is. He'll tell you in part:

2 Keys to Collision Avoidance:
- 100% CONTROL, 100% OF THE TIME  Proactive Driver 
- DRIVE WITHIN 85% SAFETY MARGIN  Leave yourself a safety buffer 

 

[Michael_vroomvroom]

Sigh.. take your car to a huge empty parking lot after a rain (or snow), get up to a decent speed and give you car a hard left or right turn (like someone trying to avoid a crash) with all the nannies on. Then go ask a HPDE instructor what the proper way to do it is. He'll tell you in part:

2 Keys to Collision Avoidance:
- 100% CONTROL, 100% OF THE TIME  Proactive Driver 
- DRIVE WITHIN 85% SAFETY MARGIN  Leave yourself a safety buffer 

Wow, I doubt I have 100% control even 1% of the time at my current driving level and on the roads I drive, so I definitely have far to go.

 

[Andy13186]

So, if I understand correctly, when a sudden loss of traction takes me by surprise I should do whatever common wisdom dictates for that specific situation, as if I had no electronic aids?

With TCS on you can barely lose traction. But yes. If you have advancetrac on but tcs off it will do some stuff to assist you or prevent you from entering a normally unrecoverable skid which is not possible with human inputs, for example putting on one wheels brake or just the rear brakes etc. Obviously depends on tires and the surface too though.

Obviously dont expect to make a 90 degree turn at 90 mph in snow though , there is some stuff that just isnt possible

 

[Vlad Soare]

The TCS won't let me accelerate past the point of losing traction (not by much, anyway). But what if the traction loss isn't acceleration-induced? What if I enter a corner a bit too fast, and the car understeers? The common wisdom says I should unwind the steering a bit until it grips, then steer again into the corner. But wouldn't it be safer to just keep the wheels turned all the time, so that the advancetrak knows where I want to go? If I do the right thing by momentarily straightening the wheels a bit, won't that confuse the advancetrak?

 

[Norm Peterson]

So, if I understand correctly, when a sudden loss of traction takes me by surprise I should do whatever common wisdom dictates for that specific situation, as if I had no electronic aids?

Driving within your limits as opposed to at them or at where you'd like to think they're at will eliminate nearly all of those 'surprise' moments. Driving smoothly and maintaining a sense of how much tire grip you've got to work with when conditions are wet or worse, even more important.

I realize that being 'smooth' with the throttle - all the time - runs counter to what most people feel that V8 muscle cars have always stood for, but with all that power it's actually more important to use it that way. IOW, if you're going to be driving a beast of a car, you've got to keep a leash on it (and a tighter one on yourself). It goes a long way toward avoiding those surprises in the first place.


Norm

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