Let's talk about the C8 vs the GT500

[Cardude99]

True. GM has placed the $60k "supercar" as a marketing scheme, I use that word lightly as GM is always scheming, for a price point only. People see, OOo a $60k supercar "buy one for me honey!" and then sell it because they get scared. But also since it is entry level to get peepers to look at it, it will not perform. GM is "scheming" once again and mixing two metrics, $60k and 0-60 in under 3 seconds. Makes me want to ring their necks. Those are TWO different cars. One is $60k and one is 0-60 in under 3 seconds for the Z51 package and of course they don't say that. Someone with brains has to figure that out while the guy's wife does not.

Sometimes I really hate GM, ok all the time, save for my ZL1.

When the hype dies down and the rebates start, cause it's a Vette and they will happen, that's when a z51 will be had for that coveted 60k price. Gt500 is going to still have markups. Also the non z51 model is likely to hit 60 in 3.2 to 3.3 secs. No slouch by any stretch. Yes they are marketing the key numbers but who cares. People on the site act like the base Vette is going to the equivalent of my ecoboost. Come on now.

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[Andy13186]

It could easily be positioned in place of the cupholders.
What does this even mean? Are you implying that there's never been a single mid-engine car equipped with a manual? LMAO
Regardless, what I think you're getting at (albeit lacking the understanding of how it works) is the linkage, which could easily use a cable-type linkage to solve any routing issues. The Corvette's engineering team said it would in no way be a difficult engineering exercise to add in a manual
Performance will be worse than the C8, despite its $15k higher price. Resale value is probably the stupidest reason to buy a car. If you're buying a car as an investment, you aren't very good with your money

There is no way performance of the c8 will be superior to the gt500. GT500 has nearly a 40% better HP to weight ratio, and a ton more downforce. gt500 will trap 15 mph more than the c8 and beat it around any track that makes power beneficial. C8 MAY pull off a rare better 0-60 and beat it on a autocross cone course in a parking lot but the gt500 will chase it down on any significant or high speed course. The LT2 engine has the same rods and pistons as the LT1, so it has the same low power potential of like 650 rwhp max and its DCT is probably fragile compared to the gt500's. gt500 will handle a solid 1k rwhp most likely.

So you think they are going to delete the cupholders and put in a shifter? lol?

I heard the engineers of c8 say no company was willing to design a manual for the c8 in an interview. Too big of a challenge with too little # of sales and simply reduced performance. Theres probably not even a tunnel to put a shift linkage up through there since there is no driveshaft or exhaust running from front to back. They would have to totally redesign the car basically. Anyway the DCT is the best of both worlds and superior to manual.

GT500 will hold its value and it will be rare unlike a "base model vette" which is basically going to be as common as civics.

 

[martinjlm]

Seriously, the debate about manual or not on the C8 is moot. It ain’t gonna happen. The guy who runs the program says it ain’t gonna happen. We can theorize all we want about how it would or could be implemented, but at the end of the day, it won’t. Carl Widman did not slam the door on an MT for GT500 like Tadge did for C8, but I wouldn’t count on seeing that application appear either. If they can already sell every one they make, why invest engineering resources to make a lower priced, lower performance, lower profit margin version of the car you can can’t make enough of?

 

[shogun32]

GM is "scheming" once again and mixing two metrics, $60k and 0-60 in under 3 seconds. Makes me want to ring their necks.

First, Marketing == abject lies.
They are just relying on the ignorant, and lousy reading comprehension skills of the buying public thanks to the "greatest public (non)education system in the world" has wrought for 40 years.

But let's say the 'base' under 60K car takes 3.4 seconds. Nobody cares. They'll buy it anyway. In droves. I sure would.

 

[shogun32]

They would have to totally redesign the car basically.

some rag posited a 'fly by wire' shifter+clutch setup which would not need any structural changes, just a couple bolt-ons and software. We all know software development is "free" any way.

 

[Andy13186]

some rag posited a 'fly by wire' shifter+clutch setup which would not need any structural changes, just a couple bolt-ons and software. We all know software development is "free" any way.

It would just be a worse transmission... May as well just put a shifter and a fly by wire clutch on the DCT and claim its manual or something but there is no point. Just use the paddles.

 

[Hack]

some rag posited a 'fly by wire' shifter+clutch setup which would not need any structural changes, just a couple bolt-ons and software. We all know software development is "free" any way.

I doubt many manual purists would enjoy driving that very much. If you can't feel the gears mesh it's not going to be the same. I suppose if you made it excessively complicated and put some sort of force feedback in there it might be ok.

 

[MaskedRacerX]

It would just be a worse transmission... May as well just put a shifter and a fly by wire clutch on the DCT and claim its manual or something but there is no point. Just use the paddles.

Hmm, maybe there's a market for a stick on shifter, like with a suction cup, and maybe a 3rd pedal that fastens to the floor with Velcro ... ?

 

[roygriffin2020]

I doubt many manual purists would enjoy driving that very much. If you can't feel the gears mesh it's not going to be the same. I suppose if you made it excessively complicated and put some sort of force feedback in there it might be ok.

Yes, but nothing will replace the good 'ole grinding of gears when you totally F-UP the shift. But at least you feel connected....

 

[Andy13186]

Yes, but nothing will replace the good 'ole grinding of gears when you totally F-UP the shift. But at least you feel connected....

That always stings a bit lol. I missed so many more shifts with my mt82 compared to my tr6060 in my CTS-V though. Ended up breaking the mt82 and they took 97 days and 3 attempts to repair it and I ended up getting it back while it still wasnt 100% so I sold the car. The tr6060 I had no problems with, very rarely missed a shift, and it had the no-lift shift feature which was fun. Still my tr6060 CTS-V had 630rwhp and my e85 tune only 10r80 runs faster times on the street. Love paddle shifting this 10r80 and I bet the DCT in the gt500 will be even better.

 

[Mountain376]

There is no way performance of the c8 will be superior to the gt500. GT500 has nearly a 40% better HP to weight ratio, and a ton more downforce. gt500 will trap 15 mph more than the c8 and beat it around any track that makes power beneficial. C8 MAY pull off a rare better 0-60 and beat it on a autocross cone course in a parking lot but the gt500 will chase it down on any significant or high speed course. The LT2 engine has the same rods and pistons as the LT1, so it has the same low power potential of like 650 rwhp max and its DCT is probably fragile compared to the gt500's. gt500 will handle a solid 1k rwhp most likely.

So you think they are going to delete the cupholders and put in a shifter? lol?

I heard the engineers of c8 say no company was willing to design a manual for the c8 in an interview. Too big of a challenge with too little # of sales and simply reduced performance. Theres probably not even a tunnel to put a shift linkage up through there since there is no driveshaft or exhaust running from front to back. They would have to totally redesign the car basically. Anyway the DCT is the best of both worlds and superior to manual.

GT500 will hold its value and it will be rare unlike a "base model vette" which is basically going to be as common as civics.

5.26 lb/HP compared to 6.86 lb/HP (GT500/C8)
6.40 lb/Trq compared to 7.23 lb/Trq (GT500/C8)

Power isn't everything, especially when you have [potentially] more trouble translating it into acceleration (weight transfer and static weight balance). What can be done with MRC, TC, ABS and e-LSD is amazing, but there are still limits.

Weight is a big deal. At any road course, high speed or not, there are corners, where a vehicle will have to carry and balance weight (one of, if not the, most important things to good lap times in any car).

The GT500 will be around 4000 lbs (+/-). The C8 is around 3400 lbs. Where the GT500 has help with it's weight is with tire compound (mechanical grip).

Than you have to get out of a corner. This is where things will get interesting when these cars get in the hands of the media and people - can the mid-engine (MR) car's weight balance offset the front-engine (FR) GT500's torque and possible struggle with putting down all of its torque?

The DCT in the GT500 is made by the same company as the one in the C8... In fact, they are probably very, very similar in base construction...

A manual in the C8 simply makes no business sense for the C8, and I'm a manual guy. Who makes mid-engine ("MR") manual transmissions (Ricardo is one of the big ones)? There are few and far between that do, making them expensive. When you have a take rate of something like 15%, the best you can do is use something that is already being made, which might compromise the car depending upon the vehicle's require performance criteria...

 

[Andy13186]

C8 wont be 3400 lbs wet, there is a lot of plumbing running those coolers from the front to the rear. I also think the GT500 is under rated HP-wise like basically every ford car especially cobras. c8 weight balance is going to be like 35/65 probably very unforgiving requiring a ton of traction control. The gt500 clearly has a ton more downforce too, huge wing etc..

 

[shogun32]

The gt500 clearly has a ton more downforce too, huge wing etc..

that's a lot of speculation. The C8 has a "big wing" option as does the ZL1 Camaro and friends. The GT500 might include into the base price, sure, but downforce is frequently designed in on sports cars so ostentatious aero doesn't have to be bolted on after the fact to fix the issue. All will be revealed just as soon as production units of various trims are properly flogged on timed circuits by actual professional drivers.

Any claims that the GT500 is superior to the C8 (or visaversa) is just spec-sheet bench racing and naked fanboy'ism. With instrumented data comes enlightenment.

 

[martinjlm]

C8 wont be 3400 lbs wet, there is a lot of plumbing running those coolers from the front to the rear. I also think the GT500 is under rated HP-wise like basically every ford car especially cobras. c8 weight balance is going to be like 35/65 probably very unforgiving requiring a ton of traction control. The gt500 clearly has a ton more downforce too, huge wing etc..

For mid engine cars, some feel that 40/60 balance is a better split. And with the powertrain settled above the rear axle, there should be no need for traction control. This is why a Porsche 911 Carrera S can hang tight with a ZL1 despite a 207 hp disadvantage and a 260 lb-ft torque advantage. Because pretty much all of that gets to the ground. It’s “built in” downforce. C8 also has a ridiculously low center of gravity which only helps with the downforce element.

 

[WildHorse]

some feel that 40/60 balance is a better split

Haha not for late braking or accelerating through a corner it isn't. 50/50 would be ideal.. ala Viper ARC.

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