GT + Upgrades vs. GT350(R)

[F0J]

(First post! Hi everyone!)

Bought a 2015 base GT without PP (came with cloth RECAROs and the 3.55) for a very good price: smidgen over 40kCAD out-the-door.

The goal is track weapon ie. cooling, balance/chassis and traction... then power.

A 2016 GT350R, after taxes, is probably going to cost 40kCAD to 60kCAD *more* than my GT but it comes with all the fancy upgrades that make it more trackable.

"Doing it right" upgrades don't come cheap though. Shedding weight, especially in a way that the car's balance gets closer to 50/50 will be, um, interesting. Proper tires, rubber... But I figure, especially if I don't do any drivetrain upgrades, I'll have the better track car with the GT after my wallet is empty.

(I'm also well versed with non Ford cars that can deliver something similar. Track cars that aren't street legal are out of the picture, for now...)

Thoughts?

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[bluebeastsrt]

Sure you can mod anything to compete with anything else. The up side to modding is you can do it at your financial pace. The down side is it will never be a GT350.

 

[Boddie]

With the GT350/GT350R you are paying more than just for a car with exceptional stock track performance. You are also paying for its rarity and name. If you don't care about the rarity of the car and its title your better off modding and tuning your GT. Then you can get it exactly where you want it and for whatever purpose you want.

 

[F0J]

Despite the prestige, I still think the GT350(R) is good value. It's the dealer markup that bugs me.

I guess what I'm looking for is a reason not to buy the GT350. Something that would read:

"I properly upgraded and tuned my GT and drove on a race track but it sucked because of X so I bought Y instead"

Or maybe:

"I did the same thing and I brought my car to X performance shop and I'm a very happy customer"

I could very well just dig deeper in the forums but I figured I'd scratch the surface posting here.

 

[Boddie]

It's the dealer markup that bugs me.

Looking over at the GT350 portion of this site it is clear many people think GT350Rs are worth more than they are listed. So if you have a problem with the ADM it may not be for you. I mean carbon fiber wheels, a GT350 unique engine, and the list goes on... I think the carbon fiber wheels coming out from Carbon Revolutions are around 15k a set which is surprisingly cheap.

 

[Stage_3]

If you're looking for a track car, then you want the GT350R.
Get the GT350R and call it a day.

 

[Trackaholic]

If you can find a GT350R at a price you find acceptable (even with some ADM), I think it will be tough to match. The carbon wheels alone can not quite be matched without spending a fortune.

If you can get a 2016 GT350 Track Pack, then you'll be close and can get lightweight aluminum wheels and R-comps to get 80% of the way there, and then get the R springs and sway bar links for maybe another 15%. The last 5% is in the R's tuning and downforce, which will also be tough to match.

If you are starting with a GT, I think you can probably get close on the track handling. You might even be able to get GT350 springs and swaybars, and likely the base model shocks. I think the real difficult part will be matching the ability of the GT350 to handle both the street and track through the use of the magnetic shocks. They make a noticeable difference and allow long cruises in comfort and excellent body control when beating around a road course.

Of course matching the engine will be tough, but not impossible since the Coyote can rev quite well in its own right and you can install the GT350 intake manifold which will allow the power to be maintained at those higher revs. Don't know if many are going to 8000 RPM, but it seems like 7500 is quite common. And of course there is always the option to go F/I and completely trounce what the Voodoo is capable of in its N/A form (at least in terms of power).

I love my GT350, and while I love the engine and feel that it is a large part of what makes the car special, I also think that a modified high-revving Coyote will get quite close in overall experience. It's the suspension setup of the GT350 that really made it special for me, and I think some of that can be re-created in the GT with the appropriate handling mods. The real trick is getting those mods setup correctly so they actually improve things.

With all that said, I would reiterate that if you can find an R at a price you are willing to pay, go for it.

-T

 

[F0J]

Thanks for the replies.

The other thing would be resale. I'll get pennies (maybe dimes) on the dollars I spend upgrading the GT. Meanwhile, the GT350 might not even depreciate for a couple of years.

There's also the "why not both" scenario where I do a couple of smaller (standard FoMoCo) upgrades to the GT and then trade it in for the GT350 somewhere down the road. Maybe when Ford are making a few more.

And yes, I can't wait to hear a Voodoo in person. Heck, I'd pay good money to see a GT350R-C.

I can't help but think the GT is a "good enough" track car. I just want a car that can last maybe a dozen laps before over-heating. Slowly fix the weak links in the drivetrain. I just need to find a mechanic that knows what they're doing. (I wish I had the time to wrench it)

But.. I don't want to invest heavily in a car when the "package deal" is available. I guess I should be talking to the guys that track their GTs.

 

[Sasuketr]

(First post! Hi everyone!)

Bought a 2015 base GT without PP (came with cloth RECAROs and the 3.55) for a very good price: smidgen over 40kCAD out-the-door.

The goal is track weapon ie. cooling, balance/chassis and traction... then power.

A 2016 GT350R, after taxes, is probably going to cost 40kCAD to 60kCAD *more* than my GT but it comes with all the fancy upgrades that make it more trackable.

"Doing it right" upgrades don't come cheap though. Shedding weight, especially in a way that the car's balance gets closer to 50/50 will be, um, interesting. Proper tires, rubber... But I figure, especially if I don't do any drivetrain upgrades, I'll have the better track car with the GT after my wallet is empty.

(I'm also well versed with non Ford cars that can deliver something similar. Track cars that aren't street legal are out of the picture, for now...)

Thoughts?

First of all, the weight distribution won't be anywhere near 50/50. The reason is, you can't take weight from the front of the car but the back. You can actually add weight at the back of the car to balance it out but then you are overall increasing the already hefty weight even more. If money was not an issue, Anderson Composites sell complete carbon fiber kit for this car, fenders, hood, doors, trunk etc.

If the weight distribution is no concern, i would start with the rear seat delete, lighter but wider wheels with nice rubber, low weight brake rotors, front 6 piston and rear 4 piston brembo brakes, light weight battery,carbon fiber drive shaft, a complete track handling package, short throw shifter, gt 350 intake manifold, cold air intake, bigger radiator for better cooling, low temp thermostat, upgraded cooling fans for more air, a real functional track spoiler and front splitter for down force, comp cams, full 3 inch exhaust and finally a race or flex tune from lund.

Now you do all this and then line up next to a gt350 I am curious to see what a setup like that would do.

 

[Hack]

(First post! Hi everyone!)

Bought a 2015 base GT without PP (came with cloth RECAROs and the 3.55) for a very good price: smidgen over 40kCAD out-the-door.

The goal is track weapon ie. cooling, balance/chassis and traction... then power.

Thanks for the replies.

The other thing would be resale. I'll get pennies (maybe dimes) on the dollars I spend upgrading the GT. Meanwhile, the GT350 might not even depreciate for a couple of years.

And yes, I can't wait to hear a Voodoo in person.

I can't help but think the GT is a "good enough" track car. I just want a car that can last maybe a dozen laps before over-heating. Slowly fix the weak links in the drivetrain. I just need to find a mechanic that knows what they're doing. (I wish I had the time to wrench it)

But.. I don't want to invest heavily in a car when the "package deal" is available. I guess I should be talking to the guys that track their GTs.

The GT is crazy fun on the track and you are a much better driver than I if you can use a GT to its limits on the track (even without power or suspension upgrades). I had a base 2015 GT and I took it to the track. It was a blast, but I kept the revs down in most areas of the track to avoid overpowering the tires (or my ability). This is coming from a guy who owned GTs for a number of years and I was somewhat bored with the power - on the street. The GT really wakes up on the track. You owe it to yourself to take the car to the track and try it out before you do anything else.

If you already have a ton of experience in track driving, or you just want to be able to tell people that you have a great track car, buying the GT350 or upgrading the GT makes sense. Otherwise, you can drive the GT as is - work on upgrading the nut behind the wheel as they say. That is the most financially sound way to go if you want to become really good at the track. Spend the money on track time rather than a car. Even trading the 2015 and getting a 2011 Brembo brake car wouldn't be a horrible way to go - put $20k or more in the bank towards tires, brakes and track time.

I fully realize I'm advising you to do as I say, not as I do. I absolutely love my GT350 and I know I will never be good enough to fully utilize it. But I also know I'm only going to the track once or twice a year, so I will always essentially be a novice driver on the track, and IMO the GT350 is amazing to drive every day to work. If you have lots and lots of cash maybe you can afford to do lots of car upgrades and still pay for lots of track time. I didn't buy the GT350 to live at the track.

 

[F0J]

First of all, the weight distribution won't be anywhere near 50/50. The reason is, you can't take weight from the front of the car but the back. You can actually add weight at the back of the car to balance it out but then you are overall increasing the already hefty weight even more. If money was not an issue, Anderson Composites sell complete carbon fiber kit for this car, fenders, hood, doors, trunk etc.

I've barely thought this through but I figure:

1) Added weight to the rear wheels eg. roll cage
2) Removed weight from the front wheels eg. carbon fiber, lightweight panels and maybe parts
3) Move weight from front to rear wheels eg. battery?

Keep in mind, the price difference between the GT I bought and the GT350 I'd probably buy is like 60,000CAD. That's the budget I'd have just for the car. I'd pay for track time either way.

I'll check out Anderson Composites.

 

[F0J]

If you already have a ton of experience in track driving

I know enough about driving that the stock suspension on the car won't keep balance under any kind of hard braking or acceleration. (Anyone test this? I can barely hold half a G until the car goes wobbly) - Sudden bumps like rocks or uneven roads are particularly scary at speed.

As soon as the TracKey is available, I'll be installing it just to turn off all the engine nannies telling me what to do. 5-3 shifts are particularly annoying.

Needs way more tires. I expect this to be my first upgrade but I need to figure out weight (say, if I get the GT350R wheels for the front to save weight), brakes (if I need to increase wheel size) and whether or not I need to go square to get a little more value out of my tires.

I'd say that the chassis is a bargain. Though you really have to try hard, or "zone in", when you're approaching the car's limit. It tells you what's going on, but only as a whisper.

And I know alot of you would disagree but 400lb.-ft is plenty of juice for having fun on the track. It's just too bad it takes a while for it to hit. I drive it 3400-6200RPMs ... Earlier torque could go a long way.

Hmm. I'm ranting now - I just want to underline that I'm not just "looking to tell others that I have a track car". One of the first things I did was price out crate motors

 

[Hack]

I know enough about driving that the stock suspension on the car won't keep balance under any kind of hard braking or acceleration. (Anyone test this? I can barely hold half a G until the car goes wobbly) - Sudden bumps like rocks or uneven roads are particularly scary at speed.

As soon as the TracKey is available, I'll be installing it just to turn off all the engine nannies telling me what to do. 5-3 shifts are particularly annoying.

Needs way more tires. I expect this to be my first upgrade but I need to figure out weight (say, if I get the GT350R wheels for the front to save weight), brakes (if I need to increase wheel size) and whether or not I need to go square to get a little more value out of my tires.

I'd say that the chassis is a bargain. Though you really have to try hard, or "zone in", when you're approaching the car's limit. It tells you what's going on, but only as a whisper.

And I know alot of you would disagree but 400lb.-ft is plenty of juice for having fun on the track. It's just too bad it takes a while for it to hit. I drive it 3400-6200RPMs ... Earlier torque could go a long way.

Hmm. I'm ranting now - I just want to underline that I'm not just "looking to tell others that I have a track car". One of the first things I did was price out crate motors

I used the brakes quite hard at the track and while I felt as though the stock suspension allows the body to move around more than I prefer, it never felt difficult to control. I could out brake all the other cars that were on the track with me - including Corvettes - with my base 2015 GT.

There typically aren't huge bumps and big rocks on the track, so you shouldn't worry about them. I had the car up to around 120 at the end of the higher speed straight, and I didn't have any problems. The instructor who was with me wanted me to go faster, so the expert in the car definitely didn't mention any issues he thought the suspension had at the track.

I 100% agree that wider and better tires with lighter rims would be a good choice. Keep the diameter as small as you can to keep the weight down, though.

Really though your first goal should not be to have the fastest car at the track, but to have fun and learn. I was surprised at how much there was to learn. It's not bad to have a shortage of traction when you haven't done a lot of driving. Things can go wrong very quickly, and if you have less traction that will keep your speed a little more manageable and slow things down. Not a bad thing unless you are an expert.

 

[Anthony@HTM]

I know you are starting with a GT, but I had probably the most heavily modified Ecoboost on the forum with a ton of money dumped into the suspension and performance for pure road course use.

I just got my GT350 track pack and have been putting it through its paces.

The handling isn't even on the same planet, it's far far more planted at any speed, the dampening is fantastic. You hit a button and the magnetic ride stiffens up and it's even more planted!

The powerband is perfect for a roadcourse car.

It's a phenomonal car that is impossible to replicate.

Cut your losses and get the car, you won't regret it.

 

[Phelix]

For what it's worth, there no dealer mark up here in Canada... They just start at 70k Haha

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