ZL1 1LE

[EcoVert]

I don't think the argument is that the Mustang needs the camaro to innovate, its just that the presence of the Camaro does help motivate Ford to push the envelope. Competition is almost never a bad thing for the consumer.

I agree with your statement competition does help push the envelope. There has been many who have stated Mustang needs the camaro to change and to innovate which is simply not true.

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[Proudgeek]

I only laugh at the bolded part of this statement because you drive a 2003 Mach 1, which is not a bad looking car by any means; however, I wonder if you have ever seen the 2003 Cobra R? I ask because that thing looks horrible with its table top wing and badly molded and blended aero.

Function over form I guess...

FTR, it was MY2000. You may have MY2003 stuck in your head because this is a camaro thread

 

[bluebeastsrt]

I agree with your statement competition does help push the envelope. There has been many who have stated Mustang needs the camaro to change and to innovate which is simply not true.

I think what grates my nuts. Is the chevy fanboys who claim that the Mustang would still have 300HP. If it wasn't for the Camaro???:doh:The GT500 had 500HP which is still impressive. Even by todays standards. Back in 2007. Ford has always been a leader in this segment. Not a follower. There would be no Camaro if it wasn't for the massive first gen Mustang sales. And the Mustang is one of a handful of cars. That has that gotta have it quality. It's a legend. The Corvette has the same quality. The same mystique! Or the 911! The Camaro has never been in that company. And it never will be!

 

[Voodooo]

I think what grates my nuts. Is the chevy fanboys who claim that the Mustang would still have 300HP. If it wasn't for the Camaro???:doh:The GT500 had 500HP which is still impressive. Even by todays standards. Back in 2007. Ford has always been a leader in this segment. Not a follower. There would be no Camaro if it wasn't for the massive first gen Mustang sales. And the Mustang is one of a handful of cars. That has that gotta have it quality. It's a legend. The Corvette has the same quality. The same mystique! Or the 911! The Camaro has never been in that company. And it never will be!

Exactly that's what I said before. GM should thank ford. Without ford GM wouldn't have much.

Ford brought the falcon which made GM bring the nova
Ford brought the mustang which made GM bring the camaro
Ford brought the bronco which made GM bring the blazer
Ford brought the ranchero which made GM bring the elcamino
Fords model t chassis was the first used as a pickup when gailon body company put a body on a ford chassis. ford then started making trucks. Of course again GM followed.
Sound familiar? Ford does an Aluminum body truck, GM criticize it then they follow.
The news about the next z28 having a dohc 5.5l flat plane crank na engine?
This I laugh my ass off about YEAH OK GM! Good luck passing EPA with that.
Ford mass produced the v8 flat head with a one piece block when all others were 3 piece blocks. This was way before GM brought the ohv engine.

The gt500 brought the muscle car wars back before their was even a camaro or a challenger in production. So all you camaro lovers better think twice before you say ford needs GM. Without ford GM wouldn't even have the camaro period. I agree competition brings improvements though.

 

[Norm Peterson]

And the Mustang is one of a handful of cars. ... . It's a legend. The Corvette has the same quality. The same mystique! Or the 911! The Camaro has never been in that company.

Agreed. Whether it's the length of continuous production that leads to acquiring that mystique or the car's production life is a consequence of it may not matter (noting that the Corvette just barely squeaks past the "continuous production" measure on a technicality).

However, absence of the 5th gen Camaro (and to a lesser extent the Challenger) would probably have us looking at 5.0 GTs @ 425 HP as the top NA trim and GT500s at 525 or so instead of what we have had to choose from. When there's no direct competition to risk playing second fiddle to, you don't have to try quite as hard and the car's evolution can proceed at a somewhat slower pace.


Norm

 

[legendary mustang]

Exactly that's what I said before. GM should thank ford. Without ford GM wouldn't have much.

Ford brought the falcon which made GM bring the nova
Ford brought the mustang which made GM bring the camaro
Ford brought the bronco which made GM bring the blazer
Ford brought the ranchero which made GM bring the elcamino
Fords model t chassis was the first used as a pickup when gailon body company put a body on a ford chassis. ford then started making trucks. Of course again GM followed.
Sound familiar? Ford does an Aluminum body truck, GM criticize it then they follow.
The news about the next z28 having a dohc 5.5l flat plane crank na engine?
This I laugh my ass off about YEAH OK GM! Good luck passing EPA with that.
Ford mass produced the v8 flat head with a one piece block when all others were 3 piece blocks. This was way before GM brought the ohv engine.

The gt500 brought the muscle car wars back before their was even a camaro or a challenger in production. So all you camaro ball swingers better think twice before you say ford needs GM. Without ford GM wouldn't even have the camaro period. I agree competition brings improvements though.

and thats the truth.the Garbage Motor boys will be crying that this was brought up.chevy sucks!!:cheers::lol::ford:

 

[ElAntonius]

Generally speaking the competition isn't the only source of innovation, but it is ONE of them.

The other thing is Ford (and Chevy) need to convince existing owners to upgrade. The 2015 had to convince S197 owners to jump, and the '18 needs to do the same.

The Boss wasn't a response to anything Chevy did, and while you could argue that the GT350 was a response to the Z/28, I'd argue it's more as a ploy to grab and extend the market the Boss played in.

I think Ford saw the HP war brewing with the ZL1 and Hellcat, and saw their market position with the Boss 302, and decided to grab a different pie rather than fight for a slice in the same segment.

Going back to my first point: I would not have bought the GT350 if it was FI. I don't want FI. I loved my Boss and the way it made power, but I wanted more amenities and a better ride. The 350 took everything I loved, turned it up to 11, and addressed my complaints. Got my business.

The ZL1 probably will do the same for 5th gen ZL1 owners, but I'm not convinced the 1LE version will grab the Z/28 buyer. That 7.0 was a wonderful engine...

 

[Momentum]

The ZL1 probably will do the same for 5th gen ZL1 owners, but I'm not convinced the 1LE version will grab the Z/28 buyer. That 7.0 was a wonderful engine...

I think you're right. The '14/'15 Z28 scratched the track junkie's itch. Not sure the ZL1 1LE will do the same. FI is a non-starter for a lot of us.

 

[EcoVert]

Exactly that's what I said before. GM should thank ford. Without ford GM wouldn't have much.

Ford brought the falcon which made GM bring the nova
Ford brought the mustang which made GM bring the camaro
Ford brought the bronco which made GM bring the blazer
Ford brought the ranchero which made GM bring the elcamino
Fords model t chassis was the first used as a pickup when gailon body company put a body on a ford chassis. ford then started making trucks. Of course again GM followed.
Sound familiar? Ford does an Aluminum body truck, GM criticize it then they follow.
The news about the next z28 having a dohc 5.5l flat plane crank na engine?
This I laugh my ass off about YEAH OK GM! Good luck passing EPA with that.
Ford mass produced the v8 flat head with a one piece block when all others were 3 piece blocks. This was way before GM brought the ohv engine.

The gt500 brought the muscle car wars back before their was even a camaro or a challenger in production. So all you camaro ball swingers better think twice before you say ford needs GM. Without ford GM wouldn't even have the camaro period. I agree competition brings improvements though.

Brother this is what I have been saying and getting warned for telling it like it is.

 

[EcoVert]

I think what grates my nuts. Is the chevy fanboys who claim that the Mustang would still have 300HP. If it wasn't for the Camaro???:doh:The GT500 had 500HP which is still impressive. Even by todays standards. Back in 2007. Ford has always been a leader in this segment. Not a follower. There would be no Camaro if it wasn't for the massive first gen Mustang sales. And the Mustang is one of a handful of cars. That has that gotta have it quality. It's a legend. The Corvette has the same quality. The same mystique! Or the 911! The Camaro has never been in that company. And it never will be!

I agree , and thank you

 

[Freedom]

Brother this is what I have been saying and getting warned for telling it like it is.

I may be wrong but didn't the LS motors cause Ford to have to innovate and bring out the coyote? The LS were doing ~400 while modular 4.6 barely did 300.
During this time the Camaro came back therefore bringing back a competitor.

 

[EcoVert]

I may be wrong but didn't the LS motors cause Ford to have to innovate and bring out the coyote? The LS were doing ~400 while modular 4.6 barely did 300.
During this time the Camaro came back therefore bringing back a competitor.

LS engine started in 1996 it was in the camaro from 1998 - 2002. From 1998 though 2004 the Mustang had the 2 valve 265hp modular motor. And the camaro died in 2002. The 3 valve 300hp mod motor came out in 2005 no competition but Ford still innovated.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LS_based_GM_small-block_engine

 

[Freedom]

LS engine started in 1996 it was in the camaro from 1998 - 2002. From 1998 though 2004 the Mustang had the 2 valve 265hp modular motor. And the camaro died in 2002. The 3 valve 300hp mod motor came out in 2005 no competition but Ford still innovated.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LS_based_GM_small-block_engine

I was talking about this but I shouldve clarified
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Camaro_(fifth_generation)

So:
2009 Camaro LS3 426hp
2010 Mustang 4.6 315 Hp
2011 Mustang 5.0 Coyote 420 hp

Even initially 1993 Camaro Lt1 275 hp
1994 mustang gt windsor 5.0 215 hp
1996 mustang gt modular 4.6 215 hp
1998 modular 225 hp
1999 new edge modular 260 hp
2001 camaro 310/325 hp

There's also the challenger but i didnt check on what their specs were like. Point is, once status quo is changed the other company matches/exceeds it. Fucking love capitalism

Not sure if any of u guys are computer people but AMD Ryzen makes me happy. Maybe intel will innovate again.

 

[EcoVert]

I was talking about this but I shouldve clarified
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Camaro_(fifth_generation)

So:
2009 Camaro LS3 426hp
2010 Mustang 4.6 315 Hp
2011 Mustang 5.0 Coyote 420 hp

Even initially 1993 Camaro Lt1 275 hp
1994 mustang gt windsor 5.0 215 hp
1996 mustang gt modular 4.6 215 hp
1998 modular 225 hp
1999 new edge modular 260 hp

According to Mustang & Fast Fords magazine dated April 2010 the 5.0 coyote engine began development in the spring of 2007 . The 5.0 was on sales in Mustangs in the fall of 2010 in the 2011 model year Mustangs. Development of the 5.0 Coyote predated the ls3 camaro.

 

[EcoVert]

LS engine started in 1996 it was in the camaro from 1998 - 2002. From 1998 though 2004 the Mustang had the 2 valve 265hp modular motor. And the camaro died in 2002. The 3 valve 300hp mod motor came out in 2005 no competition but Ford still innovated.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LS_based_GM_small-block_engine

I must correct myself the 99-04 2 valve was 260hp the 01 Bullitt was 265hp also the 11 coyote had 412hp

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