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Voodooo

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So what is the main reason not compare a forced induced factory car with more hp and torque than an NA competitor, if they can be bought for the same price? Is money not the main concern here or what? Are these cars being given away for charity?
They are not the same category dude. I don't care which cost more or less. Would you compare a $8000 bicycle to a $8000 motorcycle?
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Dary

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So what is the main reason not compare a forced induced factory car with more hp and torque than an NA competitor, if they can be bought for the same price? Is money not the main concern here or what? Are these cars being given away for charity?
Apparently they are not in the same category. Apple to apple rule cannot be applied.

This is what I learned in this thread:

- You cannot compare ZL1 to 350 because one has a blower
- You cannot compare 350R to Z/28 because one has CF wheels
- You cannot compare 16 350 base/tech to SS 1LE because one has less coolers
- You cannot compare MSRPs because one side has ADMs and the other usually invoice
- You just cannot compare anything :shrug:
 

Taneras

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They are not the same category dude. I don't care which cost more or less. Would you compare a $8000 bicycle to a $8000 motorcycle?
While we're making excuses based on arbitrary criteria lets say that the GT and SS aren't comparable because we're comparing smaller DOHC engines to larger pushrod engines.

People don't cross shop 8k bicycles with 8k motorcycles.

People do cross shop mustangs and camaros, and halo mustangs and halo camaros.

If the prices and applications are similar, people cross shop it and its comparable. Here the applications are similar (sports car/track car), so as long as the prices are similar its comparable.
 

Cardude99

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Who gives a fuck. You constantly keep comparing two cars that are not even in the same category! The GT350 is na. The camaro zl1 is fi.
I could only imagine what people like you would say if the gt500 were compared to the z28. A car with 124 more hp and 221 more tq with near equal weight sure as hell better be faster.

GM couldn't beat the GT350R with a na camaro so they had to add a blower.
Not to mention the NEW zl1 isnt any faster in a straight line than a 4 year old GT500. If the gt500 had better tires the gap in the turns would close.

I can't stand you magazine racers. I'll tell you what, lets race our own cars against each other. You and me. We both have na 2016 cars.
I understand your points however I disagree. They are definitely competitors.

Yes one is na and the other has a blower but it comes down to purpose and price. Both cars are designed for the track, and both cars will likely sell in the 70k range.

People will cross shop both cars due to those reasons. Just because the camaro has a supercharged engine doesn't mean that it's not meant to compete against the gt350r. It means that Chevy answered ford and dialed the car to 11.

I know that most brand loyal followers will find any fault they can and make all the excuses in the world why the Shelby is better but hey shit happens. This is good and it's what will force Ford to answer with something better.

Don't get me wrong I love the gt350, it's an amazing machine, however it's now 3 years old and now needs a power bump to be competitive. Any way you slice it that's fact. Sure it will still sell but on track performance does matter and some will buy the 1le because of this. Hopefully this will curb ford adm's
 

Voodooo

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While we're making excuses based on arbitrary criteria lets say that the GT and SS aren't comparable because we're comparing smaller DOHC engines to larger pushrod engines.

People don't cross shop 8k bicycles with 8k motorcycles.

People do cross shop mustangs and camaros, and halo mustangs and halo camaros.

If the prices and applications are similar, people cross shop it and its comparable. Here the applications are similar (sports car/track car), so as long as the prices are similar its comparable.
Comparing a GT to SS is a fair comparison.
Comparing a gt350 to a zl1 is not the same just because of price. If you wanna be bitching then maybe we shouldn't compare a gt350 to the z28 because the z28 cost 10-15k more.
 

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Norm Peterson

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There is a lot more drag racers and drag strips than road courses.
Mainly because knowing how to mat the skinny pedal is the first thing new drivers learn how to do. That drag racing is all about big power, lots of noise, focused on one thing only, and over in a matter of seconds makes it more easily understood.


Most of the time you guys ain't even racing, just going around like 3/4's.
Just because HPDE isn't out-and-out competition among the drivers in any given session, or that we aren't power-shifting absolutely does NOT mean that we're taking it easy out there. If it only looks and sounds like 7/10ths from the outside, we're doing it somewhere near right. It's not supposed to be a spectacle.


I want a V8 acceleration monster, and I'm not the only one.
You're entitled to that view (a rather one-dimensional view of car performance) as long as you understand that not every car enthusiast thinks like that. There's been decades where the domestic mfrs have catered to the big power/straight line outlook. But finally a few cars come out that intentionally offer much better balance among the various performance criteria and the drag race crowd gets all upset because those cars didn't give drag racing capability top billing. Get over it.

It's not about wanting less acceleration capability. It is about not needing the best possible straightline acceleration that the car could have, about not even wanting that when a sacrifice in cornering or braking capability would be necessary to get it.


Norm
 

BluByeU

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I understand your points however I disagree. They are definitely competitors.

Yes one is na and the other has a blower but it comes down to purpose and price. Both cars are designed for the track, and both cars will likely sell in the 70k range.

People will cross shop both cars due to those reasons. Just because the camaro has a supercharged engine doesn't mean that it's not meant to compete against the gt350r. It means that Chevy answered ford and dialed the car to 11.

I know that most brand loyal followers will find any fault they can and make all the excuses in the world why the Shelby is better but hey shit happens. This is good and it's what will force Ford to answer with something better.

Don't get me wrong I love the gt350, it's an amazing machine, however it's now 3 years old and now needs a power bump to be competitive. Any way you slice it that's fact. Sure it will still sell but on track performance does matter and some will buy the 1le because of this. Hopefully this will curb ford adm's
x2 - great post! Chevy definitely raised the bar and they continue to raise the bar with the 1LE option. Those that are fanatical about a certain brand will toot their horns, beat their war drums and find any & all faults with the competition. To me this is what American Hot Rodding is all about.

The only thing that a regular enthusiast may balk at during these times of one upmanship by the Big 3 will be the price point...golden time we are experiencing right now as car enthusiasts.

And I'm all out of popcorn because of this thread, so I now eat Animal Crackers as I read every post :D
 

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Damn right, we don't see to many toys at the drags. There is a lot more drag racers and drag strips than road courses. It costs a lot more wear and tear, and money to do it too. Most of the time you guys ain't even racing, just going around like 3/4's.
You road course guys are such snobs. Screw everybody else, go buy a Fiesta or some other 3 cylinder shit box right. I want a V8 acceleration monster, and I'm not the only one. It ain't good enough, and I bet sales will start to suffer, especially if they over price the 18. This is a competition, any they got nothing for the ZL1. Wait till the R gets trounced in a head to head in the magazine, we going to have you eat some yellow mustard instead of your grey poupon.
Isn't the Boss 302 a track car?:shrug:
 

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Comparing a gt350 to a zl1 is not the same just because of price.
You might not, but a lot of other people do. You don't set the comparison criteria, each person does individually. When someone is out on a curvy mountain road having fun I doubt they are worrying about what category someone else thinks their car is in.
 

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Voodooo

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Show you what? Your saying 200lbs difference between ZL1 and 1LE. Show me
No in asking you to show me the proven weights of the zl1 and zl1 1le.
 

Voodooo

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You people kill me. Would you compare a 65k raptor to a 65k GMC Denali?
 

Voodooo

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Mainly because knowing how to mat the skinny pedal is the first thing new drivers learn how to do. That drag racing is all about big power, lots of noise, focused on one thing only, and over in a matter of seconds makes it more easily understood.



Just because HPDE isn't out-and-out competition among the drivers in any given session, or that we aren't power-shifting absolutely does NOT mean that we're taking it easy out there. If it only looks and sounds like 7/10ths from the outside, we're doing it somewhere near right. It's not supposed to be a spectacle.



You're entitled to that view (a rather one-dimensional view of car performance) as long as you understand that not every car enthusiast thinks like that. There's been decades where the domestic mfrs have catered to the big power/straight line outlook. But finally a few cars come out that intentionally offer much better balance among the various performance criteria and the drag race crowd gets all upset because those cars didn't give drag racing capability top billing. Get over it.

It's not about wanting less acceleration capability. It is about not needing the best possible straightline acceleration that the car could have, about not even wanting that when a sacrifice in cornering or braking capability would be necessary to get it.


Norm
I hate when people say all drag racing is, is just straight line. Correct it is just straight line, but most of you don't know anything about the art of the game. Cutting a light, staging, reaction time, tire temps, tire psi, engine and drive line temps, track temps, trap reaction when bracket racing, shifting and rpm.
Yeah you're right it's just a game of mash the pedal (sarcasm). You have to do more than just focus on one thing, and big power doesn't always win the race.
Road and track racing you have a hell of a lot more time to make up for lost time. Try that in 1/4 mile. Ive drag raced for nearly 30 years, its a rush but so is track racing.
 

ZaneWayne

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No in asking you to show me the proven weights of the zl1 and zl1 1le.
They've weighed the ZL1 many times. It's like 3,920ish with A10 and like 3,860ish with the manual. And the ZL1LE is supposedly 60 pounds lighter than that. So around 3,800 even. Roughly. Give or take 50 pounds I'd say.

I will say, all things are pointing to a ZL1LE running rings around pretty much everything in the 75k and under price range.
 

Voodooo

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I'll believe those weights when I see them. Vorshlag does great weight measurements.
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