Why DIDN'T you get a camaro?

[Norm Peterson]

True, but you can't go multi-valve on these engines

Why not?

Not being hamstrung by 100 mm bore spacing makes it easier to go to 4-valve heads.

Norm

 

[Adamone92]

Why not?

Norm

next itll be said that it cant have Continuous VVT

 

[Norm Peterson]

next itll be said that it cant have Continuous VVT

Dodge Viper.

DuoCam | MECHADYNE (mechadyne-int.com)

The Viper phaser assembly still bolts to the front of the cam and also serves as the upper timing chain sprocket. But unlike other applications, it rotates the cam within a cam.


Norm

 

[Adamone92]

Dodge Viper.

DuoCam | MECHADYNE (mechadyne-int.com)

The Viper phaser assembly still bolts to the front of the cam and also serves as the upper timing chain sprocket. But unlike other applications, it rotates the cam within a cam.


Norm

yeah, it was a joke. As the LT1 has CVVT.

 

[Hack]

DI is only bad at low load, generally. The dual injection is the best of both worlds. Generally the port injection system does most of the work at idle and low load to prevent soot from forming. Small turbo engines struggle with that because of having to have the fuel system to match boost but also being able to run without it in normal circumstances. Creates a lot of overlap situations where you aren't getting close to a complete burn.

Yeah the fact the Coyote had PI in addition to DI is why I felt more comfortable with it in regards to fuel washing over the valves to help keep it clean.

Yep dual injection (port + direct) like the Mustang Coyote has is a lot better than the direct injection only system on the Camaro and other GM vehicles. That is, if you HAVE to have DI in the first place.

I by far prefer port injection only. It's simple and bulletproof. Easy to diagnose, easy to program/tune. Hence why I now have a 2017 Mustang rather than a newer vehicle. Less complicated, fewer downsides, burns slightly more fuel but that isn't important at all to me. DI engines are a huge disincentive to me when I'm considering a car for purchase.

And we'll not see anything like it again.

Since Dodge probably has a patent on the cam in cam design I assume you are right. I hope Dodge uses it though. If GM or Dodge would implement this their V8 performance engines would be so much better! They would get more performance and might be able to get rid of cylinder deactivation and skip shift features that are absolutely terrible. The TiVCT is a huge reason why the Predator, Coyote and Voodoo are superior to the V8 engines offered in the Camaro and another reason why I own a Mustang.

 

[Garfy]

They don't even have a chance if they wanted to. 2-3 hours to read a 5000+ page document of layered bullshit legalese is not democracy.

Kind of like how the ACA passed Congress yet I'd bet most of them didn't even read it completely if at all. And we wonder why we get such stupid laws passed in D.C.

 

[TexasMetallic5.0]

I’ve had 6 LS’s. 5 4th Gen and a 1st Gen swap. Was going to get a 5th gen until I drove my buddies car. It felt claustrophobic with blind spots. I knew I didn’t want a Challenger, so the Coyote was my only option in 2012. Got a new ‘13 and really liked it. Kept it a couple years and sold it. Then eventually wanted another and picked up my ‘18 about 2 years ago.

 

[ihc95]

Very interesting and entertaining thread thus far. I've read pretty much all of it. My reasons for choosing a Mustang over a Camaro:

Engine - I simply prefer DOHC engines to OHV ones. I love the free revving nature of it and the Gen 3 sound at 7000+ RPM is intoxicating. As mentioned by others I like how the Coyote has both DI and PI so carbon buildup shouldn't be an issue. I also HATE cylinder deactivation that GM uses. It almost always causes reliability issues and produces uneven cylinder wear long term (Audi alternates cylinders to prevent this, not sure if GM does as well).

Exterior looks - This is completely subjective, but I much prefer the look of the S550 to the 6th gen Camaro. It's the most beautiful Mustang ever in my opinion. I wish Chevy took a bigger design leap going from 5th gen to 6th gen. I've heard that the 6th gen design was supposed to be based on the Buick Avista concept but was canned in favor of keeping it similar to the 5th gen in hopes of preserving sales numbers. I think that was missed opportunity since the Avista is gorgeous and probably would have improved the visibility of the 6th gen.

Interior - Again subjective, but the Mustang interior is just so much better from a design and ergonomics standpoint. I'm actually surprised so many people prefer the Camaro's interior. I guess for some it may feel more exotic/special because of the bunker feeling? But as far as quality, my 401A package car felt noticeably better than the 2SS I test drove.

I genuinely hope the Camaro lives on to see a 7th gen and beyond (and a new generation Challenger/Charger for that matter). Competition is good for all of us.

 

[Hack]

Very interesting and entertaining thread thus far. I've read pretty much all of it. My reason's for choosing a Mustang over a Camaro:

Engine - I simply prefer DOHC engines to OHV ones. I love the free revving nature of it and the Gen 3 sound at 7000+ RPM is intoxicating. As mentioned by others I like how the Coyote has both DI and PI so carbon buildup shouldn't be an issue. I also HATE cylinder deactivation that GM uses. It almost always causes reliability issues and produces uneven cylinder wear long term (Audi alternates cylinders to prevent this, not sure if GM does as well).

Exterior looks - This is completely subjective, but I much prefer the look of the S550 to the 6th gen Camaro. It's the most beautiful Mustang ever in my opinion. I wish Chevy took a bigger design leap going from 5th gen to 6th gen. I've heard that the 6th gen design was supposed to be based on the Buick Avista concept but was canned in favor of keeping it similar to the 5th gen in hopes of preserving sales numbers. I think that was missed opportunity since the Avista is gorgeous and probably would have improved the visibility of the 6th gen.

Interior - Again subjective, but the Mustang interior is just so much better from a design and ergonomics standpoint. I'm actually surprised so many people prefer the Camaro's interior. I guess for some it may feel more exotic/special because of the bunker feeling? But as far as quality, my 401A package car felt noticeably better than the 2SS I test drove.

I genuinely hope the Camaro lives on to see a 7th gen and beyond (and a new generation Challenger/Charger for that matter). Competition is good for all of us.

Good post. One nit I will pick is to say that the only reason modern production OHV engines are NOT free revving is that they have to meet fuel economy and emissions standards.

OHV engines can rev out to 8,000 - 9,000 RPMs if they are designed and built to do so. An example would be NASCAR OHV V8s. Without TiVCT they will most likely have crappy emissions and very poor low RPM behavior though.

Edit: I agree DOHC engines are great.

 

[Fly2High]

Finally caught up. That took a while.

For me, I have never driven anything as powerful nor as quick handling as either the Mustang or Camaro so I was satisfied with either. I had a cap of about $50K so certain models were out of range.

For me, the Mustang was a better daily driver. I have other hobbies and only one car. The trunk in the Camaro had too small an opening and was too small overall. While on vacation with a Mustang, we easily got a large and 2 small suitcases in the Mustang trunk. I think just getting the same into the Camaro would have been challenging.

I am one of the few who does not care for the HUD. To me, you are just splitting the driver's dash in two. I hated the split dash on the Civic and hate the HUD/dash on the Camaro. I know, I am in the minority but it does nothing for me. Just one more toy to break. There was another issue that I will explain later with the HUD.

I prefer the buttons and layout and center screen in the Mustang over the Camaro. Yeah, it is interesting to put the air controls on the vents but I hate where they are located. Also do not like the tilt down on the screen. I enjoy the 12" driver display but it was a nice to have not a need to have. I do like having all the data instead of idiot lights you find today. I do think the data display, although smaller, ultimately gave you more useful information in the Camaro than in the Mustang. I think a few items are lacking in the Mustang.

I disliked the high popped up dash for the driver. I prefer the more linear look of the Mustang.

I do not like the facelifted Camaro. It looked like the car has a set of cheek protectors. It is only manageable on a black car and I didn't want black. The 18+ had a more European look and I loved the flowing lines. The 15-17 was just boxy and edgy and the old school fogs did nothing for me. The 18+ was more to my liking. The Side view of the Camaro also looked too tall. I love the '68 because the car looks sleek, thin and fast. The 2019 just looked bloated.

I also did not care for the fact that the Camaro was gaining weight. I think it was in 2016 or so that they commented the Camaro was like 200+ lbs lighter but by '19 that gap was narrowing and it wasn't that the Mustang was getting lighter.

Visibility was an issue. Not only was the lack of an adequate greenhouse there but, the rear view screen/mirror and HUD was challenging for me since I have to wear reading glasses. Basically, to use them, I needed two different pairs since the distance was just different enough so that I could not see both clearly without tilting my progressives. In the Mustang I did not see any issue here. Sure, I might have just needed a different prescription but it was too costly to take a chance to find out I could not get both without having to tilt my head. Not sure why but I could not get both to be clear. I think I needed to tilt my head back a bit to look at the center mirror/screen so I looked through the mid and lower portion of the eyeglasses. As a regular mirror, I would just look through the upper half and have no issues. Unfortunately, you could not see everything with the car's design.

No hand brake. I do not like a push button hand brake. I like a proper lever for when starting off in a manual on a hill. Sure, they have hill assist but why use that when a simple hand brake solves that simply and easily.

I do prefer the performance, kick and lower seating of the Camaro. Unfortunately, the other factors simply weighed too much in comparison.

As for speed and performance, I did get a PP2 and love it. I have still not exceeded its capabilities. As for speed, I think the Mustang is fast enough for right now. Having been poor, this is the first car to exceed 200hp in some time (My first car was a '73 Olds 98 - that had a Rocket 455 under the hood). It took me a little while to get use to how much power this car has. Both would have made me content in the power department. The Mustang GT PP2 with Magnaride is compliant enough to round off the harsh bumps but still give me the stiff ride I like. There is such a thing for some as fast enough.

Yes, the Camaro Tremec is said to be better and with a Getrag in an '86 Daytona, I should have learned my lesson with Getrags. That '86 had 4 tranny replacements and 5 rebuilds before I could finally save enough and get rid of it. Also it is why I won't drive a Dodge. Luckily, that '86 was a test car and had a mandatory 7/70 warranty on it so much of its repairs only costed me $100 each. Still Getrag was not a great tranny then either. I decided to take a chance. I would prefer the Tremec though. The Mustang 6M made the transition to a 6sp easy since, to me, it is really just a 5sp with an extra overdrive. It feels familiar. The Daytona and my TC were both 5sp cars. This Mustang just fit. Also, I hated the 1-4 skip shift in the Camaro and never liked the idea of cylinder deactivation just to save gas. The Mustang gets nearly identical mileage with the need for such things. Sure, you can deactivate them but why include something when most do not want it in the first place?

As for exhaust, I have the active exhaust and love it in track mode during the day and quiet when it is later in the evening for the neighbor's sake. The Camaro sounds nice but I love the Mustang sound better. It has the loud deep rumble but also a racing scream when you get up in the rpms. Often, I will find myself turning the radio off just to hear it. The Camaro was just an old school big engine sound. Reminded me of my Rocket 455 but I preferred the high rev sound too so the Mustang was just better here too.

Finally, I find that Camaro's tend to be driven by younger guys while Mustang drivers are a little more mature and driven by the middle to the older crowd. I like that Mustang guys will wave when passing by and other Mustang guys will stop and chat about the car when you are just getting out. This has happened to me on several occasions. It just seems to fit me at my current age and status in life more than the Camaro does.

Just like why I prefer a manual, sometimes being the best performing or the fastest aren't the only factors that come into play when choosing a car. They are important but not the only factors.

Only if I was buying a tool that was used for track racing would the Camaro been the perfect choice. If I only took the car out to race, I would agree the Camaro is the better car. Since I also daily drive the car, I just find the Mustang to fill that need better.. and it can go around the track too. I was never looking to race anyone and there were no trophies to win. I just wanted to have fun driving what might be my last v8, manual car every day. The Mustang just fit that bill better.

 

[gadgtfreek]

Because Camaros are F'n ugly. BTW, it seems in 2020 the slo-Maro sold half of what Dodge and Ford did...

 

[garagelogic]

They don't even have a chance if they wanted to. 2-3 hours to read a 5000+ page document of layered bullshit legalese is not democracy.

Good thing we live in a republic!

 

[Adamone92]

Because Camaros are F'n ugly. BTW, it seems in 2020 the slo-Maro sold half of what Dodge and Ford did...

How many times have you commented saying its ugly now? Lol

 

[ice445]

Good post. One nit I will pick is to say that the only reason modern production OHV engines are NOT free revving is that they have to meet fuel economy and emissions standards.

OHV engines can rev out to 8,000 - 9,000 RPMs if they are designed and built to do so. An example would be NASCAR OHV V8s. Without TiVCT they will most likely have crappy emissions and very poor low RPM behavior though.

Edit: I agree DOHC engines are great.

Yes, but also no. A NASCAR engine's lifespan is measured in events, or hours. Lol. The problem with revving the nuts off an OHV engine is that the reciprocating mass of the pushrods and lifters is substantial and produces extreme wear on the entire valvetrain. That's why OEM's won't do it, it just won't last. In a DOHC engine, the camshaft is directly acting on the valve spring. In an OHV engine, the camshaft is exerting mechanical leverage from afar through a lifter and a pushrod/rocker arm. Accelerating all those extra parts takes more time, and more force. High angular acceleration = bad for longevity. Unless I'm missing a particularly clever design that is high revving but also reliable, in which case feel free to make me look silly.

How many times have you commented saying its ugly now? Lol

It is ugly, but it's also cool looking. I feel like that is a reasonable compromise. There's not one traditionally beautiful element in its design, it's all angry angles. But because of that, it looks kinda like an alien spaceship and is therefore cool.

 

[Norm Peterson]

I mean the Viper in general. A v10 sports car from an American manufacturer that is actually somewhat affordable. I'm amazed it lasted as long as it did.

I'm amazed that it stayed as unrefined as it was for as long as it did. My kind of car, and that's something we're for sure not going to see again


Norm