Why DIDN'T you get a camaro?

[Fly2High]

OP,
I would love for you to post in the Camaro forums this topic:

Why is the Mustang getting more sales and what changes need to be done to the Camaro to improve sales and migrate Mustang owners?

Maybe we need a thread here :

What changes should the Mustang get to improve sales and reduce losing sales to Dodge?



I think we have beat this horse to death as to why we did not buy the other's car.

I think , in the end, the consensus is that the Mustang is the better daily driver and has enough performance for most. The benefits of the Camaro are either not needed by most or are personal opinion that can sway the sale to the Mustang. Interiors are still rather nostalgic so if you like the old school Mustang, this interior will appeal to you. If you prefer the Camaro old school, you will like that. Some like the chrome plastic bits. Others hate it. The Mustang dash has the display integrated while the Camaro went with a computer terminal approach.

To me, neither are very modern. I would love to see a complete departure from old school and then see what comes of it.

As for luxury appointments, neither car belongs in the luxury car arena.

I would rather see threads on how to improve what they have instead of comparing what was. At this point, neither is going to do much to change what they have unless they are planning a new model. As for the Camaro, this might be it.

I would love to know how many would be interested in a complete departure from the retro and a totally fresh design.

 

[Adamone92]

OP,
I would love for you to post in the Camaro forums this topic:

Why is the Mustang getting more sales and what changes need to be done to the Camaro to improve sales and migrate Mustang owners?

there have been many threads kind of touching on that. there are ideas ranging from advertising, having better names (ss and z28 dont have the same appeal to the masses as bullitt, mach 1, cobra, etc etc), raising the roofline to increase visibility a bit, etc etc. At the same time, they also accept that the corvette is chevys golden child. one example here:
https://www.camaro6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=577232&highlight=mustang+sales

it does seem the camaro will keep being made until 2026(?), so heres to hoping for that.

 

[OldPhart]

OP,
I would love for you to post in the Camaro forums this topic:

Why is the Mustang getting more sales and what changes need to be done to the Camaro to improve sales and migrate Mustang owners?

Maybe we need a thread here :

What changes should the Mustang get to improve sales and reduce losing sales to Dodge?



I think we have beat this horse to death as to why we did not buy the other's car.

I think , in the end, the consensus is that the Mustang is the better daily driver and has enough performance for most. The benefits of the Camaro are either not needed by most or are personal opinion that can sway the sale to the Mustang. Interiors are still rather nostalgic so if you like the old school Mustang, this interior will appeal to you. If you prefer the Camaro old school, you will like that. Some like the chrome plastic bits. Others hate it. The Mustang dash has the display integrated while the Camaro went with a computer terminal approach.

To me, neither are very modern. I would love to see a complete departure from old school and then see what comes of it.

As for luxury appointments, neither car belongs in the luxury car arena.

I would rather see threads on how to improve what they have instead of comparing what was. At this point, neither is going to do much to change what they have unless they are planning a new model. As for the Camaro, this might be it.

I would love to know how many would be interested in a complete departure from the retro and a totally fresh design.

Hi - In the early 2000s, Pontiac resurrected the GTO label in a completely non-retro style. It just looked like a regular modern vehicle, like you're suggesting. From all I've read it was an excellent performing car and had a decent following, but not enough to justify it continuance beyond a short run from '04 thru '06. Had it been designed with a retro look, maybe it would be a different story. There are always other factors such as it being a non-U.S. product. As an owner of 2 GTOs in the '60s I actually went to see its unveiling at the Detroit auto show thinking about buying one, but was totally disappointed in the look of the car. I was hoping for a retro look because of my age and past ownership. To other younger folks it may have been about performance and they probably weren't disappointed. I think long established cars like the Mustang and Camaro have succeeded in part because there is a retro resemblance and it draws buyers from multiple age groups. The retro look was a factor in my buying the Bullitt two years ago. I also think the recent Challengers did a great job with the retro look and had I been a Challenger owner 50 years ago I might have bought one. People also have opinions on whether the retro look is attractive whether they are young or old. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and I admit that the look of a car is a significant factor, albeit not the only factor, when I am shopping for a new car... Bruce

 

[jwt]

I personally like the the Camaro look in more standard versions. the massive wings and front winglets don't do anything for me in the zle version. However once I sat in one the visibility was so poor I could never see myself daily driving it in traffic. and at 6 4" and 250# it was a bit snug

I think the Mustang is the most muted of all 3 and I bought a Bullitt so muted isn't a bad thing for me but if I was buying purely on looks I'd give the Camaro #1, Challenger #2 (I'm old enough). Mustang #3 but its so close it really would depend on colors and packages and could change order any day of the week depending on my mood

 

[RocketGuy3]

everywhere ive looked, the camaro is cheaper.

Hah, I could see that being true at this point (maybe even for a while now), but I don't think it was true for the first couple years of the new gen Camaro's life. And I haven't looked into it since then.

... Though I'm now thinking about upgrading to a Mach 1, and while I want to see the Camaro do well enough to stick around, and I don't particularly have anything against Camaros (in fact there's a lot of things I recognize they do well), there's also just nothing they offer that seems like a worthwhile counter to me.

 

[jwt]

And just to add my #4 and#5 cars if building a reasonably priced stable would be the Charger and Kia Stinger both of which, if my kids were still in car seats, would be 1 and 2 in my list

 

[Adamone92]

Hah, I could see that being true at this point (maybe even for a while now), but I don't think it was true for the first couple years of the new gen Camaro's life. And I haven't looked into it since then.

... Though I'm now thinking about upgrading to a Mach 1, and while I want to see the Camaro do well enough to stick around, and I don't particularly have anything against Camaros (in fact there's a lot of things I recognize they do well), there's also just nothing they offer that seems like a worthwhile counter to me.

yeah, thats the main selling point for them right now, cheaper price with slightly better performance. You just may have to give up on some things that other members here have touched on. my 2ss 1le came with all the creature comforts, recaros, magneride, active exhaust, etc etc and i got it for 45k. Thats cheaper than i could get local pp1 mustangs without magneride.

i was considering the mach 1 as well. But A) i didnt care to wait for it. B) the mach 1 seems its going to be at least 10k more expensive, for a car that performs as well, slightly better, or maybe even slightly worse. Depending how well the mach 1 performs. C) i wanted to go to a manual transmission, and the camaro ss 1le has a stronger tremec than the mach 1.

both options are great ones, both come manual or auto, it just comes down to preference, price, and availability. For me, those went to the 1le.

 

[Norm Peterson]

OT but goddamm that looks good. Like something wiley coyote would drive to catch road runner. Not sold on the matt paint but everything else locks phenomenal.

It's fine for what it is - an occasional or weekend cruise car, and you have to respect the workmanship involved. It's not so good as a daily driver for most folks for the same reason that the Camaro suffers.


Norm

 

[SINBUSTER007]

Bruce,
i think what you are saying is that back in the "day" cars had CHARACTER. now they all look the same from the side...mostly because of govt regs and such, but in general all look the same except for a different front or rear. no "character" in any of them.
but...
mustangs, camaros, and challengers have been able to style the "retro" well enough that people see the unique characters in each car whatever that may be.
i also think the younger generation doesn't know anything about that an just looks at performance (not all young people think like this) but what they can "add" to the engine to make xxx more HP....
i very well could buy a camaro if i wanted but just doesnt appeal to me like the mustang does at this point. i DO like the classic cars from the past and hope one day the younger generation will understand and appreciate these cars because without the older ones we wouldn't have the new ones.....

 

[Norm Peterson]

I would love to know how many would be interested in a complete departure from the retro and a totally fresh design.

Are you talking interior or exterior design/styling here?

On the matter of instrument panels - they need to first be functional and not distracting. Simple is better here, and round gauges with needles tend to be best at this (these can be "digital", as long as that doesn't become an excuse for over-styling them for the sake of overstyle). Especially given that the average driver only needs a rough idea about anything that isn't his road speed and maybe the amount of fuel remaining. Make it easy for him.


Norm

 

[RocketGuy3]

yeah, thats the main selling point for them right now, cheaper price with slightly better performance. You just may have to give up on some things that other members here have touched on. my 2ss 1le came with all the creature comforts, recaros, magneride, active exhaust, etc etc and i got it for 45k. Thats cheaper than i could get local pp1 mustangs without magneride.

i was considering the mach 1 as well. But A) i didnt care to wait for it. B) the mach 1 seems its going to be at least 10k more expensive, for a car that performs as well, slightly better, or maybe even slightly worse. Depending how well the mach 1 performs. C) i wanted to go to a manual transmission, and the camaro ss 1le has a stronger tremec than the mach 1.

both options are great ones, both come manual or auto, it just comes down to preference, price, and availability. For me, those went to the 1le.

Performance to me in this comparison is almost completely not worth considering. We aren't comparing a Miata to a Ferrari here. With Camaro v Mustang, 96% of the time, it's a driver's race. And even when it's not, fun factor is more important than speed -- any reasonable people among us who aren't playing for slips only care about speed to the extent that it equates to fun. It may be a separate debate on which car is more fun to drive, but 'Ring and 0-60 times have no part in it.

I mean if all else was equal? Sure, of course I'd pick the slightly faster car. But all else is never equal.

Of course having said that, price, styling, reliability, practicality, etc are always worth considering. Did you get it for 45K out the door? That's pretty incredible if so, though I wonder how much the pandemic might affect that now. I've been reading that fun cars, especially in more exclusive trims, have actually seen a boost in demand (relative to production) during the pandemic. And I could see that having both the Camaro and the Mustang closer to their MSRPs, but not sure how true that is.

I wasn't aware that the manual in the Camaro was any better or more reliable than that in the Mach 1/GT350, though. That's interesting. Do you have anymore info on that?

 

[shogun32]

Did you get it for 45K out the door? That's pretty incredible if so, though I wonder how much the pandemic might affect that now.

I bought my 1SS/1LE in May '19 for 38.5k OTD (incl 4% tax, so 37) on a 45K MSRP. But I had a $2000 Mustang Conquest Discount which GM hasn't run for many months now. An equivalent Mustang would have run me at least 45 (PP2, 400A, Recaro, Active Exhaust) and it still wouldn't have a Tremec nor any cooling. Not to mention the PP2 damping (or especially GT's MR damping), hell even the GT350's MR damping were plainly inferior to the Camaro's.

 

[AlmostFamous]

OP,
I would love for you to post in the Camaro forums this topic:

Why is the Mustang getting more sales and what changes need to be done to the Camaro to improve sales and migrate Mustang owners?

It’s a quite easy answer.

1. Ford market’s the Mustang. GM does not market the Camaro.

2. Mustang is a better daily driver and overall vehicle.

 

[AlmostFamous]

That's the thing though, Gen 3s can get into the 10s with less mods than that. FBO + e85 with a tire is enough. Stock intake manifold + TB, and no need to touch the fuel system.

You can run E85 on the stock fuel system with the Camaro. If you plan to go beyond FBO, it’s recommended you upgrade.

Even though, I won’t disagree with you. I could probably get a FBO Gen 3 Mustang into the 10s for $500-1000 less. If you want to go any further NA with the Mustang, such as heads and cams, things get expensive really fast and more complex.

 

[Dominant1]

Bad Ergonomics is what kills the camaro. I sold new Chevys for years and when the gen 5 Camaro came out folks rejected it because of its ergonomics. Then the gen6 came out which was built on an even smaller chasis which amplified that factor. That’s when they lost their appeal. The mustang is an icon that will never die unless Ford kills it. Chevy can no longer justify the lack luster sales to continue the product. Chevy’s icon will always be the Corvette and it will never die unless Chevy kills it.