Water-Methanol Injection

[Zrussian13]

*update* this thread is 3+ years old *end update*

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[Ock]

am i only one that read title as watermelon injection at first glance?

 

[engineermike]

Knowing what I know now about the ford fuel-cut logic, spraying fuel in outside of the fuel injectors scares the crap out of me...

 

[Torinate]

Knowing what I know now about the ford fuel-cut logic, spraying fuel in outside of the fuel injectors scares the crap out of me...

please explain!

I have a Gen 2 - is there a difference between the Gen 2 and 3?

I haven’t gone to meth injection yet, but has been on my “to do” list at some point.
Should I rethink this?

thanks!

I as well as most appreciate your knowledge and insight!

 

[engineermike]

I had a lean event on mine and spent the last several days researching it to ensure I can prevent it.

Basically when torque reductions are called for due to rev limit, traction control, speed limit, dfco, transmission shift torque reduction, or a dozen other reasons, it will attempt to do so using spark timing, then enleanment, then fuel cut. Ford doesn’t see torque reduction as optional (they want final say) so it will get the specified reduction one way or another. If spark isn’t enough it will start cutting fuel. Ford does a pretty good job of ensuring the engine is safe during this time, but when you bypass the fuel system and add fuel another way, an extreme lean condition is possible.

As far as I can tell, there is no way to completely rule out fuel cut. You can reduce the chance of it happening by increasing spark control, raising limits like the rev limiter, and allowing full torque during shifts (like drag mode), but it can’t be disabled.

 

[Torinate]

Thank you sir. So adding in external fuel as in methanol might leave the opportunity for ignition except that it will be VERY lean. I would guess this would hold true on a wet nitrous system as well. If I understand correctly, this could not occur without an added fuel source outside of the cars computer controlled injectors. No fuel no burn. A little fuel and big lean boom.
Correct?

 

[engineermike]

@Torinate you nailed it on all points, save one. From the factory, between spark timing cut and injector cut it has the option to lean it out to reduce torque. In every Ford oem tune I’ve reviewed that was created after about 2014 (ecoboost, mustang gt, gt500, Ford gt, cobra jet, Etc) this lean torque reduction was disabled. It would retard timing then cut injectors (this is most evident when you let off the gas and hear a burble initially before injector cut). However, one common mainstream aftermarket tune appears to have inadvertently re-activated this “feature” in certain circumstances.

 

[illtal]

I can confirm that Ford ECU will trim out short terms to reach a particular lamba from some of my old logs.

 

[Boosted21]

I've been running meth on my Whipple setup for a year. My results are that I can command max timing while staving off knock. Dyno last year meth vs full can of Boostane on same dyno same day and had same power. Ngauge reported same timing on both runs. Yes I let the car idle 25 minutes once the Boostane was added to make sure it made it to the motor, and car had another 30 minute cool down after.

What do your intake temps look like while meth is being injected? I’m thinking of running a snow stage 2 kit on my 2021. I do have an ESS blower on my car so I think I would get many benefits to running meth. I’m mainly looking for cooler IAT’s and getting the most out of my current tune

 

[illtal]

What do your intake temps look like while meth is being injected? I’m thinking of running a snow stage 2 kit on my 2021. I do have an ESS blower on my car so I think I would get many benefits to running meth. I’m mainly looking for cooler IAT’s and getting the most out of my current tune

The w/m should be injected after the MAF which also give IAT. So you will not see anything without a breakout harness situation.

The amount of cooling is different in most people's setups due to blower setup, type, volume injected, and nozzle location.

If it injected before the MAF it needs to be an amount that can be easily atomized, so that it does not mess with the MAF signal.

I have a breakout harness installed on mine and I do not see the IATs coming down most times (on the dash). I look at the logs and see the KnockR going negative which tells me it's working properly.

 

[andrewtac]

As stated above, get a breakout. I did this on my vortech setup. A much better option is nitrous. I have both now. Nitrous cools and adds more power, instant torque.

 

[Angrey]

As stated above, get a breakout. I did this on my vortech setup. A much better option is nitrous. I have both now. Nitrous cools and adds more power, instant torque.

Back before the advent of E85 and race quality fuels, a lot of guys employed nitrous on high hp street setups as much for the cooling of the charge as for the added power.

I like this approach better than methanol. In the "old days" meth injection kits developed a bad reputation for being fail prone and if the tune is relying upon it, creates dangerous conditions for the motor. That's why a lot of tuners advise against it. If your ice tank pump takes a dump, the worst that happens is you get heat soak and higher IAT's sooner. But if your tune is counting on methanol and the pump takes a shit, you could end up with serious knock/predetonation. Seems like some of that is now myth and been resolved and the reliability of the kits is vastly improved. Previously a nitrous setup was considered a little more dependable than a meth injection setup.

Now with E85, the ability to make more power (safely and reliably) than the chassis can really handle, these solutions have gone by the wayside but they're still desirable for those few out there still clinging to big power on 93 octane. To make matters worse, direct injection now accomplishes essentially some of the same thermodynamic cooling effects as spraying water or methanol or rapidly expanding a compressed gas into the A/F mixture.

If I was die hard set on making hero power on pump gas, then a combination of nitrous and/or meth injection would be a way to either bump the numbers or add safety (assuming everything works as it should).

 

[andrewtac]

I am running e85. The meth was to combat middle of summer heat on the big end of the track, never really got to test it. It was dropping iats but not sure if it would have been enough. Nitrous was sort of the same, but liked the idea of the torque.

 

[wish i was fast]

The w/m should be injected after the MAF which also give IAT. So you will not see anything without a breakout harness situation.

The amount of cooling is different in most people's setups due to blower setup, type, volume injected, and nozzle location.

If it injected before the MAF it needs to be an amount that can be easily atomized, so that it does not mess with the MAF signal.

I have a breakout harness installed on mine and I do not see the IATs coming down most times (on the dash). I look at the logs and see the KnockR going negative which tells me it's working properly.

if your temps are not dropping your nozzle is to small. if you inject after iat sensor you can still get benefits from it. your octane goes up so any knock goes away and the car will run more timing.
i run one nozzle right at the centrifugal and one after maf

 

[illtal]

if your temps are not dropping your nozzle is to small. if you inject after iat sensor you can still get benefits from it. your octane goes up so any knock goes away and the car will run more timing.
i run one nozzle right at the centrifugal and one after maf

I assure you it's not too small... It is a 24 gal/hr: Since I got spacers the Temps move a lot slower than it used to. Now, I do get -KnockR all the way up to 8000. I have a breakout, it's in the Rear of the supercharger.

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