Trade PP2 for Mach1

[mustang5o]

Love the Mach 1...so nostalgic.

I dare say, though, that a stock low mile PP2 will be worth more than a similar S550 M1 in 20 years. The PP2 is a rare and unique run; maybe a bit less desirable without the Mach’s name sake, but pretty limited.

I doubt this to be true since it's just a package that goes on a GT. Do you have any numbers from a comparable car in the past that is worth more then a special edition version? I haven't done any research on this aspect but I know I've seen it brought up before.

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[Roadway 5.0]

I doubt this to be true since it's just a package that goes on a GT. Do you have any numbers from a comparable car in the past that is worth more then a special edition version? I haven't done any research on this aspect but I know I've seen it brought up before.

There are a lot of variables here, primarily production numbers. But yes, I think generally speaking you’re right.

However, usually special editions are a limited run (i.e. Boss 429 at 1359 units)—I’m assuming the S550 Mach I will be a very large run. With that, the PP2 could edge out the M1’s value in the future, much like some rare color and transmission combinations can be worth gobs due to rarity.

I think the PP2’s clandestine creation story adds value too; as does the likeliness that this model will be less collected, reducing pristine examples in the future.

 

[NoXiDe]

These were at Road Atlanta with Jim Owens and a few other Ford members giving rides on these bad ass cars. In regards to not being able to allow journalists test the Mach 1... what for? It's 2021 and the S550 has been out for awhile now...

 

[Mikepol2]

The PP2 is a great car to drive as it comes from the factory in my opinion. It also looks really good. They wheels make all the difference. When I put my track wheels on the car just doesn't look as good.

100%. I have a set of PP2 wheels with 285/35 front and 305/35 rears and looking forward to putting them on the M1 to see how they look. Similar design as the upgraded base M1 wheels but wider with more concavity. Leaning towards running the PP2 wheels Oct - April and the HP wheels with Cup 2's in the summer.

 

[kz]

Yes the treadwear index of the Supercar 3 tires is similar to the GT350R Cup 2s. The Supercar 3Rs have even lower treadwear - much lower. The PS4S has a lot longer tread life compared to a Supercar 3 tire. That's what gives the Camaro an advantage is extremely sticky and short life tires.

I am not sure you know what you're talking about. I get you're trying to make some convoluted argument that 1/LE is faster because of tires, but do you have any direct experience with Goodyears ? Supercar 3s are obviously stickier than PS4S but nowhere near "extremely sticky" - they're less sticky than SC2s and a whole bunch of TW200 tires. Stock 1/LE is simply better car than PP2, GT350 and likely Mach 1 as well. Your tire logic is flawed as you seem to be using some inaccurate opinions off internet. (Have direct experience with bunch of 1/LE on their stock tires that were swapped to different TW200 tires).

 

[Hack]

I am not sure you know what you're talking about. I get you're trying to make some convoluted argument that 1/LE is faster because of tires, but do you have any direct experience with Goodyears ? Supercar 3s are obviously stickier than PS4S but nowhere near "extremely sticky" - they're less sticky than SC2s and a whole bunch of TW200 tires. Stock 1/LE is simply better car than PP2, GT350 and likely Mach 1 as well. Your tire logic is flawed as you seem to be using some inaccurate opinions off internet. (Have direct experience with bunch of 1/LE on their stock tires that were swapped to different TW200 tires).

When you put tires with nearly equal treadwear ratings on the two cars and put them in the hands of professional drivers, they are very close in performance. That's factual information that I have that doesn't have any variables like amateur drivers, different days, word of mouth, bias, etc. Heck, even when the Mustang has 300 tw tires and the Camaro has ~200 tw tires they are close, but then the Camaro is slightly faster.

 

[kz]

When you put tires with nearly equal treadwear ratings on the two cars and put them in the hands of professional drivers, they are very close in performance. That's factual information that I have that doesn't have any variables like amateur drivers, different days, word of mouth, bias, etc. Heck, even when the Mustang has 300 tw tires and the Camaro has ~200 tw tires they are close, but then the Camaro is slightly faster.

Ok, so internet "data". Got it. Seriously - there is no reason to making shit up to prove 1/LE isn't better - it's not like I am some GM fanboy - but you have to respect when competition makes good car. 1/LE stock is more or less where Mustang with wider wheels (for PP1), Magneride, Springs, bars, whole bunch of typical suspension mods (bearings and so on) and lightweight rotors (1/LE has 2-piece rotors stock) is (I specifically am not saying whether it's PP/PP2 or Mach 1 as it really doesn't matter in this particular comparison, they're all the same shit) - at ~$20k lower price once you factor those mods in.

 

[Hack]

Ok, so internet "data". Got it. Seriously - there is no reason to making shit up to prove 1/LE isn't better - it's not like I am some GM fanboy - but you have to respect when competition makes good car. 1/LE stock is more or less where Mustang with wider wheels (for PP1), Magneride, Springs, bars, whole bunch of typical suspension mods (bearings and so on) and lightweight rotors (1/LE has 2-piece rotors stock) is (I specifically am not saying whether it's PP/PP2 or Mach 1 as it really doesn't matter in this particular comparison, they're all the same shit) - at ~$20k lower price once you factor those mods in.

Yes I'm magazine racing. If you want to call it internet data that's fine too. You are just giving your opinion with nothing at all to back it up. I think using data uploaded onto the internet by pro car reviewers is more believeable than some random person on the internet making claims.

I haven't made anything up. I'm referencing real data, unlike you. Just look up the treadwear of the tires. It's publicly available information. And when you put equivalent treadwear tires on the two cars, the Mustang is faster.

The 1LE Camaro has a decent chassis. Probably roughly equivalent to the Mustang's chassis, since they are very close in performance. And my understanding is that it has better cooling than the Mustang. I personally don't like the way LS engines deliver power. I don't like the interior of the car or the mail slot windows.

Comparing sales of the two cars will help you understand how competitive the Camaro is. Some people buy Camaros even though there are Challengers and Mustangs available. Camaro is a distant third in sales, but it is competitive enough to sell at least in some quantities. It's definitely good for there to be competition out there. Maybe the next generation Camaro will get a more modern OHC V8. Then I'd be a lot more interested - even given all the downsides of the platform.

$20k difference doesn't sound right to me, but I'll take your word for it. Every time I look at Camaros they seem expensive for what you get. I'd love to get a 1LE loaded up for $30k or so. I didn't realize it was possible. I thought they were roughly equivalent to the Mustang in price.

 

[Mikepol2]

Just look up the treadwear of the tires. It's publicly available information. And when you put equivalent treadwear tires on the two cars, the Mustang is faster.

So by that logic a Goodyear Eagle Asymmetric AT SUV All-Season tire, which has a treadwear of 240, would give better performance than a Michelin Pilot Sport 4S, which has a treadwear of 300. I think a deeper dive into what treadwear really means and how it's calculated is in order.

 

[shogun32]

Just look up the treadwear of the tires. It's publicly available information.

and not remotely comparable across brands. It's right there in the fine print. There is no standard.

The 1LE Camaro has a decent chassis. Probably roughly equivalent to the Mustang's chassis, since they are very close in performance. And my understanding is that it has better cooling than the Mustang.

VASTLY better cooling (now Mach1 is finally at par on paper) and significantly better chassis. My PP1 with wide rims, the Steeda catalog thrown at it only now comes within spitting distance of my unmolested 1LE. But I gave up significant ride quality to get there.

My 1LE was 40k OTD, the Mustang PP1 37. I'm an easy 3 grand into Mustang chassis/suspension mods and haven't done anything about the cooling yet.

The SS/1LE is a cool 9 grand cheaper than the 600A Mach1 similarly equipped.

 

[Hack]

and not remotely comparable across brands. It's right there in the fine print. There is no standard.

VASTLY better cooling (now Mach1 is finally at par on paper) and significantly better chassis. My PP1 with wide rims, the Steeda catalog thrown at it only now comes within spitting distance of my unmolested 1LE. But I gave up significant ride quality to get there.

My 1LE was 40k OTD, the Mustang PP1 37. I'm an easy 3 grand into Mustang chassis/suspension mods and haven't done anything about the cooling yet.

The SS/1LE is a cool 9 grand cheaper than the 600A Mach1 similarly equipped.

I've talked about this multiple times on here, but I'll do it again. I apologize if it's brief because I'm sick of repeating myself. UTOQ treadwear is based on a government standardized test and companies can be fined if they give the wrong number. So it definitely is comparable across brands. All tire brands are running the same test and held to the same standard.

I definitely interpretted your very clear comparison incorrectly on the $20k thing. I do think 20k is more than it would cost to equalize equipment, but you could be correct. Especially if you pay people to do the modifications and your goal is maximum track worthiness. I think $10k is probably closer, depending on how crazy you want to get. I do agree track worthiness is an area where the Mustang falls down. Ford tends to not make the Mustang track capable and when they do they include too many extras, shooting the price very high. That is a nice thing that GM does with the 1LE package.

HOWEVER, I think you are saying you got a deal on your Camaro. Really you should be comparing MSRP if you want to be fair and unbiased across brands.

 

[shogun32]

UTOQ treadwear is based on a government standardized test and companies can be fined if they give the wrong number. So it definitely is comparable across brands.

no, they just can't claim it's higher than it is. Say the 'spec' would call for labelling a particular tire 300, they can't claim it's 400 but they can claim it's 200.

HOWEVER, I think you are saying you got a deal on your Camaro. Really you should be comparing MSRP if you want to be fair and unbiased across brands.

I was using MSRP in the 9 grand difference between the two "equivalent" cars: SS/1LE vs 600A Mach1.

 

[kz]

I've talked about this multiple times on here, but I'll do it again. I apologize if it's brief because I'm sick of repeating myself. UTOQ treadwear is based on a government standardized test and companies can be fined if they give the wrong number. So it definitely is comparable across brands. All tire brands are running the same test and held to the same standard.

Thanks for posting this. UTOQ is as arbitrary of a standard as it possibly can be and is very much not comparable between tires, just so you know for future discussions on the internet you plan on participating in.

 

[Hack]

Thanks for posting this. UTOQ is as arbitrary of a standard as it possibly can be and is very much not comparable between tires, just so you know for future discussions on the internet you plan on participating in.

Please give me one reason why the official government tire wear test is arbitrary instead of just making a statement as though you are the world's foremost expert on tire wear.

And remember the definition of the word arbitrary when you share your infinite wisdom.
Arbitrary: based on random choice or personal whim, rather than any reason or system.

 

[Hack]

no, they just can't claim it's higher than it is. Say the 'spec' would call for labelling a particular tire 300, they can't claim it's 400 but they can claim it's 200.

Completely untrue. And no manufacturer is going to claim their tires wear out more quickly than they really do. That would be idiotic of them.

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