Tire breakaway levels

[bullitt2]

Took a look at some of the other threads and didn't see this answered but apologies if it's already posted.

I am having a dilemma with my track set-up and wanted to see if anyone had any insight. Been running Michelin PS4 during the summer (autoslalom and open lapping) and Michelin Pilot Sport A/S 3+ during the winter rainy events (autoslalom). Recently swapped back to the PS4 from the A/S 3+ and am feeling a noticeable difference in the gradualness of the point of breakaway.

For example, on the A/S3+, there was feeling that the car was gradually slipping. On the PS4, the car seems to just snap when it breaks away. Is this becausre they are older tires (planning to replace either with another set or something else before the next event), or is that just how the PS4 tire feels? I have heard from fellow drivers (driving BRZ and Golf GTI) that they feel gradual breakaways on their tires and not a sudden snap but obviously the cars are very different.

Any insight would be appreciated. Thanks!

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[TundraOnKings]

From my understanding, the lower the TW rating on a tire, the more grip and less notice on when the tire will give. (PS4S vs Hoosier slick).
I’m running GY SuperCar3’s (non-r) because they are a 200TW tire that is forgiving but also pretty grippy.
I’m moving to 305 or 315 Cup 2’s after swapping my studs and going 19 or 18x11’s later in the year after I burn through my spare set of SC3’s. I rode in a GT350 this weekend on track and I couldn’t believe the Cup2’s grip. Driver mod was amazing too lol.
If you’re on stock PS4S’s I did not like those at all. I did spin off track (low speed) with them one time, but it was my fault as they were cold. Moving to the SC3’s was a huge improvement.

You’re in a front engine high HP RWD car, comparing BRZ and GTI are apples/oranges.

 

[PaddyPrix]

Chances are, you might be faster on the PS4 than you are on the A/S 3+, and so a better handling tire compound will give you more room and performance. It feels less gradual, because it assumes that you know your limits.

TL;DR : Nerd shit. That TW is somewhat of a rule of thumb and nothing enforced, but for the most part it works without going into extreme details.

TW basically works like this: A tire with a TW of 100 will last for X, and so a tire with 300 will last 3x, and 500 will last 5x, and 40 will last .4x ... whatever X is for that manufacturer... and just throwing this out, but for sake of argument, say, 12,000 miles? For a 500TW that's 60k which ... doesn't seem too far off, again, generally speaking. The thing is though, we're tracking the hell out of these cars, so if you have a 100TW tire, chances are it won't see 12,000 if you're going to the track every month.

However, the manufacturers don't have to use the same logic/weighting, as there's no standard for what a 100 is, or 200 is. You've got something like a Toyo RR that is rated 40TW, you've got a Nitto NT01 that's 100, and you've got a Yokohama A052 that's 200... which one's fastest? (The Yoko is). The Goodyear Eagle F1 3R is "100TW" that will abuse just about anything that's not named Hoosier. The 40TW Toyo RR is slower than just about anything that most people consider racing on. So depending on what rules and classes are, some manufacturers will play with their TW rating for their own financial benefit.

That breakaway feel has a lot of variables in it, almost too many to name. In fact, I was instructing somebody in a BRZ on Sunday, and so some combination of the tire, his steering angle, aero/mechanical grip, speed, springs, weight, weight distribution/transfer, tire pressure, track temperature, etc, etc... but we certainly did get sideways in a few turns though.

What I can say, is that the breakaway is a part of the tire's design, and purpose. For instance, a street tire will tend to have a very high audible feedback, it's squealing, which should let you know that you're right around its peak, don't be a dingus and pump the gas or jack the tire harder, because I'm warning you, you're going to lose it. As you get to a faster compound, say an R compound, the audible feedback is much less, and even in some cases non-existent and the allowance, or amount that your steering can be off by also reduces greatly. That is done in exchange for the grip you're paying for, as their rationale is well, if you're running competition slicks, you're competing, and by this point, you're probably experienced enough to run it at its limits and know what you're doing, how to feel the tire, handle your car, etc, etc.

 

[Dana Pants]

Me and some of my autocross buddies agree that the PS4S has challenging break away characteristics. I prefer ECS as a rain/street tire.

 

[K4fxd]

It's kind of the nature of radials. The gripper they are the more unforgiving they are.

This is why guys like Darrel Waltrip, and to a lessor degree Dale Earnhardt, were not competitive after the switch from Bias ply tires.

 

[nbjeeptj]

I am in the same boat, I like a tire with a more gradual slip. I find that the Federal 595rs-rr is great at this. It has good grip but does not let go real fast, and there is a lot of audible feed back.

 

[PC_GUARD]

I am in the same boat, I like a tire with a more gradual slip. I find that the Federal 595rs-rr is great at this. It has good grip but does not let go real fast, and there is a lot of audible feed back.

Im not being facetious, wouldnt the translation to grip be better via feel? I have ZERO track experience with the s550, in any way shape or form, but I realize that its disconnected and assumed track guys had figured out how to get the feel.

Again, I am just asking about it, text can make it seem different than intended.

I originally come from off road/ Rally/ice, and dirt is ALL feel, even a pre-brake isnt just to get the calipers back centered and warm, its also to get a sense of what the surface is doing/feels like.

 

[nbjeeptj]

I would prefer the car to slightly and gradually slide than to not up until it gives up rapidly with no warning. I have a about 45 track days under my belt and have tried a lot of different tires but I keep coming back to these. My fastest time on CMP was on a new set of Faulken 660's, and it was 2 seconds faster than my fastest repeatable laps on the 595's, but the faulkens were only that fast in the first session, after that they are about the same as the 595's, so for cheaper and more consistent thru their life I prefer the 595's. If I were trying to win a TT or a race I would go with something stickier.

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