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Supercharger Install

Whipple SC

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I've got a list of stuff I'll be posting in the main/large supercharger thread tomorrow after a final meeting with engineering. But I want to hit a couple things tonight regarding post 32, I had seen a number of things I had an issue with but I wanted to wait until I had solid numbers straight from engineering before posting.


Billet fuel rails vs factory style rolled steel, the manufacturing process of billet items result in a porous metal. In short this leads to fuel leaks from those rails made of porous metal.

I'm concerned with the need of a 10 rib system to drive this new supercharger, we have seen approx 1000 hp with our blower on the 6 rib setup and haven't even considered needing a 10 rib setup.

The "Massive HD" tensioner will certainly cause an unnecessary stress on the pulleys, crankshaft specifically and certainly play a role in early bearing failures.

Mounting your intercooler reservoir behind the bumper cover in a hidden location. Does this mean you must use a mirror to add and check the fluid level or must your entire front end be removed every time ?

Yes, the front inlet does outflow our rear inlet at first glance but by no means "significantly" its by such a small amount that once you add the jack shaft and necessary drive gears etc. you've actually lost performance over the rear inlet, we have spent countless hours testing these supercharger designs and believe me when I say if front inlet was the way to go we would have been doing so long ago. However we did make some improvements over our last head unit as seen below.


Here is the old design which was still much more efficient over the twin screw design



Here is the new head unit, undoubtedly beats the front inlet jack shaft driven unit





Like I said after tomorrows meeting I will have some numbers I've been waiting on and would really like to touch base on the claims of the larger intercooler, the throttle body which we've taken up around 1000hp and still haven't maxed out as well as why this kit requires such a heavy cooling system to operate.
Since it was questioned, here's some direct comparison's. Note that the Whipple supplied LTR (heat exchanger) features 150% more volume as well as 16FPI vs 14FPI offering significant cooling capacity.

The IC core features over 33% more volume with 14 water passages vs 11 for increased cooling capacity. As shown in the image, you can see the shear size comparison.

What does all this mean? Not all boost is created equal. By increasing the capacity on the cooling system, the Whipple system will yield cooler IAT2 temps, net increased power on pump gas and race gas while doing it easier (easier on parts, further from detonation, further from catastrophic EGT's). While one maybe be able to push the boundaries on a quick chassis dyno run, in the real world, temps have to be maintained whether your doing a 195mph run (Hennessey), daily driving or running up and down the track.

As for a front feed unit (free of restrictions like shafts in the inlet) vs rear feeds are more efficient in everyway. While a claim that a jackshaft takes more power, this is only slightly true, as it takes 1.6HP to operate at 18,000RPM on the 2.9L compressor jackshaft version over a standard rear feed. But, because one cannot typically pull air directly from the back (think Ford GT), the air must make roughly a 160deg turn. Because of this, as well as firewall clearance and K-brace clearance, a rear feed loses some of its chance for laminar flow as the radius is restricted due to compressor placement. Furthermore, because the suction phase of the supercharger is dependent on the proper volume of air any turbulence will result in lower volumetric efficiency. Having nearly a straight path vs multiple angle changes and a 160deg (approx.) turn causes more inlet restrictions. Because a rear inlet needs a gradual turn to reduce turbulence, the driven rotor (when fed from driver side) will typically have a harder time maintaining proper volume fill as its on the shortest side of the inlet and the smallest radius. While it takes 1.6hp more (1.1 @14,000) at 18k, VE is 9.3% higher which allows for lower supercharger speeds to net the targeted airflow. The lower speeds lowers the parasitic loses significantly, thus in reality it takes less power to move the same amount of air.

One must also factor in the round to oval shape, as oval has been proven to flow as much as 50% less than round at the equal square area. This is the reason we went away from the oval and came up with the elliptical throttle body and inlet (SVTP's Steve Turner called it the Roval) as it significantly outflows an oval shape. We used a 123mm round MAF housing (no need to go bigger, already included) with a bell mouth on the inlet. We also used a 8" long air filter vs. the 7". We also have countless hours on the airflow bench that shows the S&B "Power Stack" outflows the traditional type of filter allowing the compressor to breathe easier.
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Jewishthunder

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Following for the future. I'd never buy a kit that requires grinding the block, that seems like a massive oversight.
 

av99gt

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Having worked as an engineer designing supercharger systems, I love certain comments that are being told to try and sell a product. Billet leads to a porous part. LOL.

Some 6 rib systems lead to belt slip, depends on the entire design / setup of drive.

TVS Roots rotors are not more efficient than Screw type. Look at the efficiency maps. Now if a system is badly designed than that is a different issue.


No pot stirring here.
 

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Kyle@ROUSH

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Hey guys,

This is what it comes down to, there is a place for every supercharger technology in the marketplace whether it is TVS, twin screw or centrifugal. We target the street/strip/weekend warriors looking to make up to 800HP while retaining OEM drivability, not to say that is the limit as there are numerous people hitting 1000HP with TVS technology. I’ll touch base on the grinding one last time. You need to remember we are a MOR and build pre-title vehicles and therefore we are held to new vehicle standards crash testing etc. The grinding is absolutely necessary to use the second sheave of the factory system. You must grind down the bosses for proper alignment of the new idlers. One positive thing is that your supercharger and AC compressor are not run with the rest of the driven items so in the highly unlikely event you do throw a belt you’re only going to lose the supercharger and AC compressor and will not be stranded. I’ve been instructed to no longer partake in the back and forth bickering. This obviously doesn't mean I'm not going to answer any specific questions you may have about our products, certainly feel free to give us a call or shoot me a PM. We've got calibrated kits with a warranty on the shelf ready to ship, if you're interested you're welcome to call and order.


Thanks.
 

Whipple SC

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Hey guys,

This is what it comes down to, there is a place for every supercharger technology in the marketplace whether it is TVS, twin screw or centrifugal. We target the street/strip/weekend warriors looking to make up to 800HP while retaining OEM drivability, not to say that is the limit as there are numerous people hitting 1000HP with TVS technology. I’ll touch base on the grinding one last time. You need to remember we are a MOR and build pre-title vehicles and therefore we are held to new vehicle standards crash testing etc. The grinding is absolutely necessary to use the second sheave of the factory system. You must grind down the bosses for proper alignment of the new idlers. One positive thing is that your supercharger and AC compressor are not run with the rest of the driven items so in the highly unlikely event you do throw a belt you’re only going to lose the supercharger and AC compressor and will not be stranded. I’ve been instructed to no longer partake in the back and forth bickering. This obviously doesn't mean I'm not going to answer any specific questions you may have about our products, certainly feel free to give us a call or shoot me a PM. We've got calibrated kits with a warranty on the shelf ready to ship, if you're interested you're welcome to call and order.


Thanks.
Just for clarification, does this mean the vehicle was crash tested with the K-brace removed or modified as well as extensive FEA analysis to accurately state it does not matter?

Also would like to note, due to the complexity of the belt system you stated, the belt is difficult to remove as you have to remove the tensioner and idler assembly from the engine.

In our system, the belt can be exchanged or replaced within minutes. With an additional adjustable idler setup located between the balancer and alternator pulley, we can adjust nearly 3" giving customers plenty of belt choices in the future. The extra accessories driven, water pump and alternator do not have excess load applied to them, as the tensioner is pulling from the other side and each accessory is isolated on the pull side with an idler.

Our system is best suited for 500rw to 1050rw and we feel for a fraction of increase in price ($400), the level of engineering, packaging, fit and finish, power gains, ingenuity and components supplied is overwhelming. While we had the ability to supply a smaller intercooler system and save $400 to be identical in price, we wanted to separate ourselves from the others. There is plenty of business for all and we should all be able to get along as we have in the past.

As for bickering, only facts were provided here so customers can make informed decisions on what product best fits there needs. Any response I provide is to deal with inaccuracies posted such as the billet 6061-T6 fuel rails leaking vs a sheet metal/furnace brazed fuel rail or to directly answer the question at hand.
 
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Reds197

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Just for clarification, does this mean the vehicle was crash tested with the K-brace removed or modified as well as extensive FEA analysis to accurately state it does not matter?


Base cars do not have a k-brace. I bet Ford crash tested several. My car doesn't have one. I bet it doesn't matter!
 

Whipple SC

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Just for clarification, does this mean the vehicle was crash tested with the K-brace removed or modified as well as extensive FEA analysis to accurately state it does not matter?


Base cars do not have a k-brace. I bet Ford crash tested several. My car doesn't have one. I bet it doesn't matter!

Correct, but doubtful they (Ford Motor Company) ever tested one that has been cut in half per the instruction manual. While this would have little to do with actual structure during a crash test, when someone states that's the level of engineering/business, it makes one believe that its been tested that way. Roush may have and I think the customers would love the feedback. The K-brace is really for handling so I would say its technically irrelevant on a crash test. Same as the bosses being ground, holes being drilled in the radiator shroud, wires pulled from the drive by wire harness.... While it will never go back 100% to stock, it should never have an issue going very close back to stock. Irrelevant to structural integrity, more of just an engineering conundrum.
 

Inigo

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Roush....regardless of the engineering principal, most consumers will not want to cut anything integrally attached to there engine.
 

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SVTFreak

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Roush....regardless of the engineering principal, most consumers will not want to cut anything integrally attached to there engine.

Yeah, as evidenced by the fact that they've been selling like hotcakes and making 10 second cars since 2011?
 

Reds197

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I am sick of hearing about the k-brace. I am sure it has a purpose but I bet it is so minimal you can barely tell if its removed.
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Inigo

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Yeah, as evidenced by the fact that they've been selling like hotcakes and making 10 second cars since 2011?

How do you tie sales into a speculative statement? Speculating?


One might buy a product and not want to do "x" but needs to do "x". Its not a matter of scale. If Joe doesn't want to cut a single wire, then Joe doesn't want to cut a single wire. If Megan says "Its not that big a deal", Joe can say, "That's not the point". In this scenario Joe will do what he has to do in order to accomplish his goal weather he wants to, is happy about it or not. His only other option precludes his decision from the start. That may have been purchasing "x" that doesn't require a cut wire.
 
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Ninjak

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I would say looking at how the Whipple kit is done, that it was well thought out and put together for ease. I know how to work on the Stangs. I did all my Shelby work myself. But I would tell you that even shops are not comfortable with grinding and splicing unless it is truly a necessity.

That is just a fact, and the above poster is correct in what he says.
 

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I am sick of hearing about the k-brace. I am sure it has a purpose but I bet it is so minimal you can barely tell if its removed.
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