Steering Feel

[Thecasperlife]

Hi everyone!

I recently drove a Mustang GT convertible rental and was absolutely smitten by it, and now I’m looking to buy one. I also drove a Camaro SS convertible to compare, and was blown away by the steering feel of that car. Pretty much everything else (engine, visibility, ride, etc.) I thought was better with the Mustang, however going back and driving the Mustang I now notice how numb the steering feels. By that I mean the steering doesn’t communicate front end grip / what the front tires and suspension are doing, despite changing the steering modes from comfort to sport (I actually found the sportier setting to feel more artificial).

My question is, is there a way I could potentially improve the steering feel of the Mustang GT? I have read that the Shelby GT350 and GT500 have steering racks that are much better for steering feel and response. Would it be possible to say, theoretically, swap in a GT350 EPAS system in place of the one that comes in the standard GT? Or would It be possible to tune the EPAS system?

Thanks in advance!

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[Kleiss1]

Try a different Steering Mode. They have 3 to choose from.

 

[NoVaGT]

No, there is not. Well....not really.

The Mustang uses Ford's EPAS, or electrically power assisted steering. It is very sophisticated piece of kit used in Ford's attempt to completely and utterly remove any connection (good or bad) through the car, to the road.

The steering effort is adjustable, but that doesn't provide any better steering feel.

What you can do, are certain modifications that tighten up the front and rear sub-frames to the unit body, which will serve to stiffen the structure of the car, provide more stability, and give just a little more steering..........not feel, but connection/immediacy.

Here's my observations of the suspension mods I did yesterday, to help you along. The same observations would apply without the Magneride.

This morning I did the Steeda Stop-The-Hop Starter kit, vertical links with poly bushings, and their G-Trac K-brace. I also got an alignment that adjusted some slight front end toe out, to a slight toe in.

Hoo. Lee. Fuq. What a difference.

I had done the same IRS stuff on my 2016 PP1 car, so I knew what I was getting into and could expect. But I had also done Steeda's adjustable shocks and struts at the same time, so there's always a bit of a question as to which parts/mods made what sort of changes. And the same goes here.....I did it all in one shot, so I can only explain what the over-all difference is.

When I bought this car, I didn't really think it needed the Steeda stuff. But over the time I've owned it, I've gotten sicker and sicker with the wiggle-wiggle-wiggle-wiggle of the back end. And with Magneride, the fucking wiggle (FW) was somehow more obvious and annoying. If the car was in Normal mode, it was all over the road L to R (horizontally), as well as up & down. So to stop all that non-sense, into Track mode the MR goes.....

Which then makes the FW even more noticeable. With less up & down suspension movement in Track mode, the FW became even more annoying, more specifically noticeable.......so it had to go.

And the FW meant that when driving on crowned roads, the rear of the car steered the whole fucking car (FC). Top gear at 65 MPH, mash throttle and the FC would move into the lane to the right. Off the throttle and the FC would move back to the left one lane. It was really that bad on one particular freeway that has crown, and in general power ON sent the FC to the right, and releasing the throttle would steer the FC to the left.

Now, the FW is gone. And the FC tracks straight and true without regard to throttle. The car is absolutely planted, stable, and over-all just 100% more solid. It's feels like the spring rates have been doubled, especially in back.

Other observations;

-The trans shifts better. Evidently the cradle lock-out really helps.

-A bit of a rattle in the back end has disappeared.

-There is slightly better front end/steering feel. Not dramatically so, but at least some improvement.

-It feels as if the MR can now finally do it's job properly. As if before all the mods, the MR was trying to stop the suspension moving in several different axis, and now it just has to deal with up & down, as it always should have.

-I can now drive the car in Normal mode without being annoyed to death by the back end doing whatever the hell it wanted to at any given moment.

I haven't pushed the car yet, but the cruising mode changes are tremendous. Well worth the $1K spent in parts and labor. This is the way the car should have come from the factory, and I should have done these mods when I first bought the car.

 

[Thecasperlife]

Try a different Steering Mode. They have 3 to choose from.

Yeah as I mentioned I tried the different steering modes, I felt they changed the weight artificially but did not do anything to improve steering feedback/communication.

 

[Thecasperlife]

No, there is not. Well....not really.

The Mustang uses Ford's EPAS, or electrically power assisted steering. It is very sophisticated piece of kit used in Ford's attempt to completely and utterly remove any connection (good or bad) through the car, to the road.

The steering effort is adjustable, but that doesn't provide any better steering feel.

What you can do, are certain modifications that tighten up the front and rear sub-frames to the unit body, which will serve to stiffen the structure of the car, provide more stability, and give just a little more steering..........not feel, but connection/immediacy.

Here's my observations of the suspension mods I did yesterday, to help you along. The same observations would apply without the Magneride.

This morning I did the Steeda Stop-The-Hop Starter kit, vertical links with poly bushings, and their G-Trac K-brace. I also got an alignment that adjusted some slight front end toe out, to a slight toe in.

Hoo. Lee. Fuq. What a difference.

I had done the same IRS stuff on my 2016 PP1 car, so I knew what I was getting into and could expect. But I had also done Steeda's adjustable shocks and struts at the same time, so there's always a bit of a question as to which parts/mods made what sort of changes. And the same goes here.....I did it all in one shot, so I can only explain what the over-all difference is.

When I bought this car, I didn't really think it needed the Steeda stuff. But over the time I've owned it, I've gotten sicker and sicker with the wiggle-wiggle-wiggle-wiggle of the back end. And with Magneride, the fucking wiggle (FW) was somehow more obvious and annoying. If the car was in Normal mode, it was all over the road L to R (horizontally), as well as up & down. So to stop all that non-sense, into Track mode the MR goes.....

Which then makes the FW even more noticeable. With less up & down suspension movement in Track mode, the FW became even more annoying, more specifically noticeable.......so it had to go.

And the FW meant that when driving on crowned roads, the rear of the car steered the whole fucking car (FC). Top gear at 65 MPH, mash throttle and the FC would move into the lane to the right. Off the throttle and the FC would move back to the left one lane. It was really that bad on one particular freeway that has crown, and in general power ON sent the FC to the right, and releasing the throttle would steer the FC to the left.

Now, the FW is gone. And the FC tracks straight and true without regard to throttle. The car is absolutely planted, stable, and over-all just 100% more solid. It's feels like the spring rates have been doubled, especially in back.

Other observations;

-The trans shifts better. Evidently the cradle lock-out really helps.

-A bit of a rattle in the back end has disappeared.

-There is slightly better front end/steering feel. Not dramatically so, but at least some improvement.

-It feels as if the MR can now finally do it's job properly. As if before all the mods, the MR was trying to stop the suspension moving in several different axis, and now it just has to deal with up & down, as it always should have.

-I can now drive the car in Normal mode without being annoyed to death by the back end doing whatever the hell it wanted to at any given moment.

I haven't pushed the car yet, but the cruising mode changes are tremendous. Well worth the $1K spent in parts and labor. This is the way the car should have come from the factory, and I should have done these mods when I first bought the car.

Thanks for this reply, that is very helpful!

I have read that certain modifications like Steeda Linear springs, Ford performance track dampers, and updated swaybars can improve the steering feel somewhat. That is re-assuring and certainly something I will consider doing if/when I eventually buy a Mustang.

I guess what I’m wondering is, it seems Ford tuned the EPAS system for better steering feel for the GT350R and GT500 (at least, based on numerous reviews, I have not driven either because I am set on a convertible). I wonder if it’s possible to replace the steering rack in the GT with one from a GT350/GT500. I imagine if this were possible though it would be quite expensive.

 

[NoVaGT]

Thanks for this reply, that is very helpful!

I have read that certain modifications like Steeda Linear springs, Ford performance track dampers, and updated swaybars can improve the steering feel somewhat. That is re-assuring and certainly something I will consider doing if/when I eventually buy a Mustang.

I guess what I’m wondering is, it seems Ford tuned the EPAS system for better steering feel for the GT350R and GT500 (at least, based on numerous reviews, I have not driven either because I am set on a convertible). I wonder if it’s possible to replace the steering rack in the GT with one from a GT350/GT500. I imagine if this were possible though it would be quite expensive.

I do not believe springs and sway-bars will increase steering feel. From an engineering stand-point, that's not how this works. Mustangs have 0 steering feel due to EPAS, and that's how Ford wants it.

EPAS is not a pull & replace situation. It's highly complex and integrated into the car and it's electronics/computers/BCMs. Mess with it, and I guarantee you'll have issues. It's not just power assist, but also active in filtering out road-crown, wheel & tire shake/imbalance, and other things people complain about to service techs because they're stupid.

I'd suggest starting with various Steeda and BMR suspension/subframe mods, and going in with the expectation that the car's steering will be numb.

You do have to start with the Stop The Hop Starter kit first and foremost, as the back end of the car messes with the steering. It's actually the biggest change in the steering/handling dynamic. Then the G-Trac K-frame tightens the front sub-frame to the car, making the steering more precise. The small amount of slop is removed. The vertical links for the IRS just remove a bit of slop.

There's lots of other options, but some aren't available for a convertible.

 

[Cobra Jet]

I do not believe springs and sway-bars will increase steering feel. From an engineering stand-point, that's not how this works. Mustangs have 0 steering feel due to EPAS, and it's how Ford wants it.

EPAS is not a pull & replace situation. It's highly complex and integrated into the car and it's electronics/computers/BCMs. Mess with it, and I guarantee you'll have issues. It's not just power assist, but also active in filtering out road-crown, wheel & tire shake/imbalance, and other things people complain about because they're stupid.

I'd suggest starting with various Steeda and BMR suspension/subframe mods, and going in with the expectation that the car's steering will be numb.

You do have to start with the Stop The Hop Starter kit first and foremost, as the back end of the car messes with the steering. It's actually the biggest change in the steering/handling dynamic. Then the G-Trac K-frame tightens the front sub-frame to the car, making the steering more precise. The small amount of slop is removed. The vertical links for the IRS just remove a bit of slop.

There's lots of other options, but some aren't available for a convertible.

@NoVaGT is correct - EPAS and the PSCM is complex and there's different EPAS software coding as well as different EPAS units used across the S550 platforms. I had created this reference thread for future EPAS tech; it has a lot of good info if you have the time to check out:

https://www.mustang6g.com/forums/threads/s550-epas-pscm-tech-accumulation.160616/

 

[Thecasperlife]

I do not believe springs and sway-bars will increase steering feel. From an engineering stand-point, that's not how this works. Mustangs have 0 steering feel due to EPAS, and that's how Ford wants it.

EPAS is not a pull & replace situation. It's highly complex and integrated into the car and it's electronics/computers/BCMs. Mess with it, and I guarantee you'll have issues. It's not just power assist, but also active in filtering out road-crown, wheel & tire shake/imbalance, and other things people complain about to service techs because they're stupid.

I'd suggest starting with various Steeda and BMR suspension/subframe mods, and going in with the expectation that the car's steering will be numb.

You do have to start with the Stop The Hop Starter kit first and foremost, as the back end of the car messes with the steering. It's actually the biggest change in the steering/handling dynamic. Then the G-Trac K-frame tightens the front sub-frame to the car, making the steering more precise. The small amount of slop is removed. The vertical links for the IRS just remove a bit of slop.

There's lots of other options, but some aren't available for a convertible.

Thanks for sharing your wisdom and advice, I greatly appreciate it!

That makes sense regarding EPAS. From my digging around it seems there is no way to re-tune the EPAS system. The only thing I have found is a DSC sport controller which can tune the magneride, which would only address suspension tuning and have no effect on steering feel.

The only other thing I've gleaned from searching this forum for similar threads is a discussion that a different GT350R/GT500 knuckle may contribute to better steering in the Shelby models (https://www.mustang6g.com/forums/threads/gt350-r-and-gt500-knuckle-comparison.140816/page-5). I wonder if it would be possible to install GT350R calipers, rotors, and front knuckles into a standard Mustang GT.

.

Anyway, I am getting way ahead of myself here as I still haven't even purchased my car yet. Will likely wait until the car market dies down a bit since it is crazy right now.

Thanks again for your help and advice!

 

[ice445]

Nothing you can do, the Camaro will always feel better in that regard.

 

[Roadway 5.0]

I hunted steering feel in my Mustang since I bought it new in 2016; I’m totally satisfied now with the selected mods. Took a bit to get it right…here’s a full write-up:

https://www.mustang6g.com/forums/th...-epic-street-suspension-review-w-pics.160152/

Cliffsnotes: Stiffer bushings in the front control arms plus Steeda’s 2-point kbrace paid big dividends in steering feel for me. I also did a stiffer front sway bar and MPS4S tires which really aided in a more heavy, precise, and linear build-up when turning.

 

[emcmtony]

I have played around with the different steering modes and I honestly have not seen too much of a difference. I just live it to wear the default is.

 

[Järn]

Yes, you can upgrade the steering feel. I did.
There are three parts available to order (choose 1 or 2 or all 3).

Personal experience:
Steeda Lateral Link, normal ball joint (On the car for 2 months. Very noticeable difference in steering feel!)
Steeda 2-Point K-Member Brace (On order. Note: 2-point brace will provide 80% of the benefit of the 4-point brace)
Steeda Tension Links (Will be ordered soon) Part Number: 555 4907

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
My saved notes/quotes from the Suspension Forum (from multiple members) over a few years:

Important: Are you planning on changing springs?
Lateral Links with Extended Ball Joint FOR DROP >= 1 inch Part Number: 555 4906
Lateral Links with normal Ball Joint FOR DROP < 1 inch Part Number: 555 4914

------------------------

The rearward lateral links have spherical bearings and that definitely makes a difference in steering response and feel.

The tension links control the fore-aft position of the front knuckle (resists forces from braking, acceleration),

The LATERAL LINKS are the main member receiving lateral loading from cornering.
Putting bearings in these arms at the connection points to the lower K-member removes deflection under braking and cornering loads.
This results in more precise steering, more consistent grip, and removes erratic toe change under hard braking due to the deflection.
On the Performance Pack cars, the lateral link already has this bearing. None of the S550s come with bearings in the tension links.

Lateral Link arms:
Base (non-pp) cars have a bushing on the inner point, GT PP and GT350 have bearings on the inner point
GT350 have taller and different ball joint seat angle at the outer point
Steeda extended ball joint lateral arms have the same as GT PP inner point, and offer similar geometry to the GT350/correction from lowering - these you want with lowering >= 1 inch

Tension arms:
All S550s have bushings at the inner point stock
Steeda and others offer bearings for that inner point, as well as versions of these arms w/ bearings installed - these you want, while Steeda also offers a version with a stiffer bushing than OEM

In my experience, the lateral arms going to bearings have zero NVH change. The tension arms going to bearings create more road impact noise due to no longitudinal deflection.

 

[ShadesOfBloo]

I'm glad I found this thread. There's a lot to like about my Mustang, but it has even less steering feel than my Mitsubishi sedan.

I found a similar discussion on an S197 forum, and it seems like the big solution was a steering rack and software from Ford Racing.
The S197 chassis also had very little steering feel and then they installed EPAS and made it worse. But the "Boss 302R" rack apparently had good steering feel, for the people that wanted it.

I thought there must be a similar solution for my S550, perhaps with GT350 parts.

Try a different Steering Mode. They have 3 to choose from.

If you read his whole post you'd know he tried all of them.
Sport is the least lame steering mode, and still has no useful feedback. All noise, no signal.

Lateral Link arms:
Base (non-pp) cars have a bushing on the inner point, GT PP and GT350 have bearings on the inner point
GT350 have taller and different ball joint seat angle at the outer point
Steeda extended ball joint lateral arms have the same as GT PP inner point, and offer similar geometry to the GT350/correction from lowering - these you want, with lowering >= 1 inch

In my experience, the lateral arms going to bearings have zero NVH change. The tension arms going to bearings create more road impact noise due to no longitudinal deflection.

I looked into those Steeda lateral links...
They're so similar to my GT-PP links, if I installed them would I see a difference?

If anyone offered it, I'd be interested in a steering rack with a quicker steering ratio and less power assist.

 

[BimmerDriver]

I noticed that the OP currently drives a GTI. That's a fun little pocket rocket, with typically excellent German car dynamics. As a fellow German car enthusiast, I know that nothing else matches that feel. And those cars (BMW, Porsche, Audi) were even better back before electric power steering.

Coming from multiple Corvettes, the numb steering feel of the Mustang was not a surprise to me, and I quickly got used to it. No, I didn't like it, and yes it could be better, but you gotta remember that they are tuning these cars for the typical buyer, and if you give them too much feedback, they're going to complain about the "darty" steering and how the wheel fights them all the time. And since the GT350/500 presumably offer better steering feel, then obviously Ford has done all of this on purpose.

Before you spend thousands of dollars modifying the car (often with compromises) you may just want to live with it for a few months and see if you can't just adjust to it and accept it. Especially in a convertible, you already have some implicit limitations in handling.

BTW, check the forum for ordering cars, there are some dealers that do offer discounts, and one of those is not too far away from you (well, just a couple of states west).

 

[Järn]

I looked into those Steeda lateral links...
They're so similar to my GT-PP links, if I installed them would I see a difference?

If you have a PP GT, the answer is NO.
(Checking my notes from past forum threads...)
"Ford parts: The tension link (forward arm) has a bushing in all variants. The PP cars have bearings in the lateral link (rearward arm), the non-PP with bushings."

You could, however, replace the Tension link and install a 4-point G-Track brace.
The issue is price versus improvement. Will you be doing the work yourself?
For me with my base GT, I was willing to pay the money.
I installed the two control arms, the Strut tower brace, and the 2-point G-track brace (one-by-one). With each part, there was a noticeable improvement, enough to say I would do it again.

Important to note that a better/bigger improvement to the steering came with new springs, dampers, camber plates, and camber of 1.7°. More money and bigger improvement.

--------------------------
https://www.mustang6g.com/forums/th...-performance-track-shocks.105570/post-2421454
Dec 26, 2018 #26
Another thing I would highly recommend considering is bearings at all 8 of the main suspension pick-up points.
These will not only drastically reduce geometric change during weight transfer, but also reduce bind for an overall improved ride (though it comes with a bit more road feel and impact noise).
The stock GT PP has bearings at the lateral link (rearward of the front arms) and the furthest rear point of the rear control arm, so 4 of 8.
J&M and Steeda both sell the tension link (forward most front arm) bearings, and Optimum Performance sells arms with the bearings already installed.
Steeda does as well, with the option of front roll center correction (which will also require their bumpsteer correction kit).
BMR and Steeda both sell bearings for the rear control arm point. The car will feel lighter, more responsive and more precise.

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