Sleeved motor build

[BBW P1X]

Well I am ready to get a sleeved motor started and i already spoke with some larger name shops to get it done. It is just the shortblock. Regarding heads, I have read that leaving them stock is perfectly fine, now my question is what did you pair them with? Valves and springs? as well as any additional parts. Plan is to be a maxed out PC P1X build with nitrous for a bit to test the limits of the blower until i move onto an F1A TIA.

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[Jackson1320]

I did a valve job with bronze/copper valve guides. Comp cam spring retainers and seal kit Manley valves

https://www.modularheadshop.com/i-2...ess-steel-intake-valves-5-0l-coyote-38mm.html

https://mbenzgram.com/products/comp...8iKUngl2t_FOdnz3xyhxOzHY_WuArFoxoCiv4QAvD_BwE

 

[BBW P1X]

I did a valve job with bronze/copper valve guides. Comp cam spring retainers and seal kit Manley valves

https://www.modularheadshop.com/i-2...ess-steel-intake-valves-5-0l-coyote-38mm.html

https://mbenzgram.com/products/comp...8iKUngl2t_FOdnz3xyhxOzHY_WuArFoxoCiv4QAvD_BwE

you've held good amount of power with them? I'm wanting to be around 1200 and just want to make sure that i only have to do work on the heads once for a while

 

[Jackson1320]

I have had them to 892whp and a 150 shot on top. Not as high as you are planning but I have no doubt that they would take that without issue

 

[Angrey]

Because you're using a centri, the springs aren't as crucial as they would be for say a turbo setup and the float issues on the exhaust valves/ports.

The other reason to upgrade would be if you're wanting to increase the rpm limit significantly.

The factory springs and their lower spring rate will just run out of velocity and steam once you start to go above certain rpm.

If you do upgrade the springs, ensure you upgrade the cam cap bolts. Increasing the spring rate will put a lot more stress on the caps and fasteners. I'd also upgrade the secondary chains to heavy duty (regardless) because again, driving the cams with stiffer springs involves more force and that translates to more tension on the chains.

As far as the valves themselves and the guides, I'd leave that up to the builder. Again, if you're not planning on revving to the moon and you don't anticipate extended harsh use (like 30 minutes of bouncing between 5k-8k on a track session 10 times a year) then the OEM valves and guides are probably just fine.

Things I'd absolutely upgrade in a build

1) Head cooling crossover (with the motor out, this is a no brainer. $150 and worth it)
2) Secondary chain tensioner bracket. I won't go into it here, but what's weird about Ford's heads are that there's a bit of slack in the driver's side timing so the cams can actually be off a few degrees. The bracket is cheap and eliminates the issue.
3) Secondary chains (see above)
4) E85 resistant wear guides (I think the billet guides are a bit of a gimmick but I think the ethanol resistant material is probably helpful if you plan on running E. Then again, there's probably a zillion guys running E without them that haven't had issues.)
5) ARP everything. Ford torque to yield shit is garbage. The entire ARP fastener line for a motor build is pricey, like a couple hundo short of a grand if you do every single one. Mains, Head Studs, Balancer, Cam caps, phaser bolts, camshaft sprockets, etc, etc. At a min I'd do the mains, the head studs and the balancer.
6) OPG and sprocket (obviously)
7) Might as well buy a new oil pump to go with it (see horror stories about play and clearance with old oil pumps and noises, issues)
8) From there it's taster's choice on main bearings, rods, pistons, rings, coatings, etc.
9) Don't forget the spacer if you're going to run ARP mains (for oil pickup to clear the studs)
10) Head dowels (putting heads on without them gives OCD types cold sweats)
11) Near rear main seal (you could also get the billet rear main cover if you're spendy or just thorough)

There's a few more minor stuff but off the top of my head

 

[BBW P1X]

Because you're using a centri, the springs aren't as crucial as they would be for say a turbo setup and the float issues on the exhaust valves/ports.

The other reason to upgrade would be if you're wanting to increase the rpm limit significantly.

The factory springs and their lower spring rate will just run out of velocity and steam once you start to go above certain rpm.

If you do upgrade the springs, ensure you upgrade the cam cap bolts. Increasing the spring rate will put a lot more stress on the caps and fasteners. I'd also upgrade the secondary chains to heavy duty (regardless) because again, driving the cams with stiffer springs involves more force and that translates to more tension on the chains.

As far as the valves themselves and the guides, I'd leave that up to the builder. Again, if you're not planning on revving to the moon and you don't anticipate extended harsh use (like 30 minutes of bouncing between 5k-8k on a track session 10 times a year) then the OEM valves and guides are probably just fine.

Things I'd absolutely upgrade in a build

1) Head cooling crossover (with the motor out, this is a no brainer. $150 and worth it)
2) Secondary chain tensioner bracket. I won't go into it here, but what's weird about Ford's heads are that there's a bit of slack in the driver's side timing so the cams can actually be off a few degrees. The bracket is cheap and eliminates the issue.
3) Secondary chains (see above)
4) E85 resistant wear guides (I think the billet guides are a bit of a gimmick but I think the ethanol resistant material is probably helpful if you plan on running E. Then again, there's probably a zillion guys running E without them that haven't had issues.)
5) ARP everything. Ford torque to yield shit is garbage. The entire ARP fastener line for a motor build is pricey, like a couple hundo short of a grand if you do every single one. Mains, Head Studs, Balancer, Cam caps, phaser bolts, camshaft sprockets, etc, etc. At a min I'd do the mains, the head studs and the balancer.
6) OPG and sprocket (obviously)
7) Might as well buy a new oil pump to go with it (see horror stories about play and clearance with old oil pumps and noises, issues)
8) From there it's taster's choice on main bearings, rods, pistons, rings, coatings, etc.
9) Don't forget the spacer if you're going to run ARP mains (for oil pickup to clear the studs)
10) Head dowels (putting heads on without them gives OCD types cold sweats)
11) Near rear main seal (you could also get the billet rear main cover if you're spendy or just thorough)

There's a few more minor stuff but off the top of my head

Thwnk you for the inout, yeah the builder is going to ARP everything for me and get the build as tough as possible to avoid having to redo anything. Goal is to have one of the fastest S550 Procharged P1X car's. Once that's done i'm expecting to go turbo, i've loved the idea of a hood exit or fender exit, i do rev to 7500 at the moment and tuner said their isn't much benefit to increase it on this end, but i just may do it if i decide to go either Turbo or F1A, i'd love to have a custom built F1X because i've asked PC and they say that the bracket won't allow the F1X to fit but regardless would love to.

i'm going to end up going with better head equipment. Would you suggestported heads or Boss302 heads /ported or is it just not worth the expense?

 

[Jackson1320]

Because you're using a centri, the springs aren't as crucial as they would be for say a turbo setup and the float issues on the exhaust valves/ports.

The other reason to upgrade would be if you're wanting to increase the rpm limit significantly.

The factory springs and their lower spring rate will just run out of velocity and steam once you start to go above certain rpm.

If you do upgrade the springs, ensure you upgrade the cam cap bolts. Increasing the spring rate will put a lot more stress on the caps and fasteners. I'd also upgrade the secondary chains to heavy duty (regardless) because again, driving the cams with stiffer springs involves more force and that translates to more tension on the chains.

As far as the valves themselves and the guides, I'd leave that up to the builder. Again, if you're not planning on revving to the moon and you don't anticipate extended harsh use (like 30 minutes of bouncing between 5k-8k on a track session 10 times a year) then the OEM valves and guides are probably just fine.

Things I'd absolutely upgrade in a build

1) Head cooling crossover (with the motor out, this is a no brainer. $150 and worth it)
2) Secondary chain tensioner bracket. I won't go into it here, but what's weird about Ford's heads are that there's a bit of slack in the driver's side timing so the cams can actually be off a few degrees. The bracket is cheap and eliminates the issue.
3) Secondary chains (see above)
4) E85 resistant wear guides (I think the billet guides are a bit of a gimmick but I think the ethanol resistant material is probably helpful if you plan on running E. Then again, there's probably a zillion guys running E without them that haven't had issues.)
5) ARP everything. Ford torque to yield shit is garbage. The entire ARP fastener line for a motor build is pricey, like a couple hundo short of a grand if you do every single one. Mains, Head Studs, Balancer, Cam caps, phaser bolts, camshaft sprockets, etc, etc. At a min I'd do the mains, the head studs and the balancer.
6) OPG and sprocket (obviously)
7) Might as well buy a new oil pump to go with it (see horror stories about play and clearance with old oil pumps and noises, issues)
8) From there it's taster's choice on main bearings, rods, pistons, rings, coatings, etc.
9) Don't forget the spacer if you're going to run ARP mains (for oil pickup to clear the studs)
10) Head dowels (putting heads on without them gives OCD types cold sweats)
11) Near rear main seal (you could also get the billet rear main cover if you're spendy or just thorough)

There's a few more minor stuff but off the top of my head

All good stuff I just feel that if I’m there I’m gonna go ahead and upgrade the primary chains. you can get GT 350 primaries for $60. upgrade the tensioners. Even though the heads are fine stock I just feel like if I’m already there I may as well Put it back together better than I took it apart

 

[BBW P1X]

All good stuff I just feel that if I’m there I’m gonna go ahead and upgrade the primary chains. you can get GT 350 primaries for $60. upgrade the tensioners. Even though the heads are fine stock I just feel like if I’m already there I may as well Put it back together better than I took it apart

and which heads would you suggest then? Or modifications to the current heads? Ported? Different heads??

 

[Jackson1320]

and which heads would you suggest then? Or modifications to the current heads? Ported? Different heads??

Gen1 or gen2 or boss are all going to preform the same once they have been ported. The boss has the best stock valves. I would probably get f150 dual fuel heads if I was going to use stock valves. They are stronger because of the prep for different fuels. That’s why they cost more than mustang heads. If you plan to do port, valves, springs, guides then it doesn’t matter they will all be equal

 

[Angrey]

and which heads would you suggest then? Or modifications to the current heads? Ported? Different heads??

That's really personal preference.

Head work is one of those things that's lower on the list for most owners because it's pretty spendy and you can usually make more power than the car/chassis can handle without having to do it.

If you can only stomach 1000 rwhp, etc, you can get there without porting the heads, it's just how much effort it takes. Generally speaking, you don't HAVE to port the heads until you get deep into 4 digits at the wheels.

The stock coyote heads aren't bad, but porting/polishing basically brings them up to the same or similar flow rates as the GT350 heads. Ported GT350 heads can flow 380cfm+. Ported Coyote heads tend to be around 320 (where the 350 is stock).

What does that mean? It means you might have to run 20 lbs of boost to make 1000 rwhp with stock heads but you might only have to push 17 psi to make the same power on ported heads.

Generally speaking, unless you're just at the end of things to buy or you have money to burn, there's really no reason to do it other than you want the absolute most badass stuff. Lots of guys making more power than the tires can hold without it.

 

[andrewtac]

Following for the future build. One of the things I was unsure on was head porting for FI. Figured why not while I am in there spending the money. I assumed any NA gains would be magnified by the boost and require less boost for the same hp.

 

[Jackson1320]

Angrey is right it is normally saved for someone who has already done everything else that they can do to make more power and wants every horse possible. You can always get and port gt350 heads but you better have deep pockets.

 

[Angrey]

Following for the future build. One of the things I was unsure on was head porting for FI. Figured why not while I am in there spending the money. I assumed any NA gains would be magnified by the boost and require less boost for the same hp.

All true. It's just that the total cost is usually pretty stout (like half the cost of a blower setup).

The logic goes, if you're going to get porting, might as well do a guide job, then new valves and guides, check the deck, etc.

With shipping to and from (unless you live close enough to dropoff and pickup) it ends up being up to around $4k+ for most reputable head wizards.

If you're goal is say 800 or 1000, you can still make that without the additional $4k in costs (and time with the heads out) you just have to run a little more boost.

It's only once you start getting way above 1000 hp where you run out of cooling, belt, blower/turbo etc and now ported heads start to mean a great deal.

Or as you said, if you just wanna drop $4k so that you can make 1000 wheel at 17 lbs instead of 21 (I'm just throwing numbers here so don't take it specific/literal, I'm not sure there's a great deal of data available on just how much lower or higher boost has to be at a given power with or without porting).

I can tell you that it's a more compelling issue with the coyote heads than the GT350 guys. GT350 heads flow about 317-320 depending on the reference. Coyote heads flow about 290 stock. You have to really hog them out and go with oversized valves to get them up to where the 350 heads start.

Basically, for most mortals, the juice isn't really worth the squeeze. But if you're wanting serious 4 digit power, it's probably something that should be done or makes it easier.

 

[andrewtac]

All true. It's just that the total cost is usually pretty stout (like half the cost of a blower setup).

The logic goes, if you're going to get porting, might as well do a guide job, then new valves and guides, check the deck, etc.

With shipping to and from (unless you live close enough to dropoff and pickup) it ends up being up to around $4k+ for most reputable head wizards.

If you're goal is say 800 or 1000, you can still make that without the additional $4k in costs (and time with the heads out) you just have to run a little more boost.

It's only once you start getting way above 1000 hp where you run out of cooling, belt, blower/turbo etc and now ported heads start to mean a great deal.

Or as you said, if you just wanna drop $4k so that you can make 1000 wheel at 17 lbs instead of 21 (I'm just throwing numbers here so don't take it specific/literal, I'm not sure there's a great deal of data available on just how much lower or higher boost has to be at a given power with or without porting).

I can tell you that it's a more compelling issue with the coyote heads than the GT350 guys. GT350 heads flow about 317-320 depending on the reference. Coyote heads flow about 290 stock. You have to really hog them out and go with oversized valves to get them up to where the 350 heads start.

Basically, for most mortals, the juice isn't really worth the squeeze. But if you're wanting serious 4 digit power, it's probably something that should be done or makes it easier.

I have the blower, just need the smaller pulley now. Livernois was around 4k using their cores, just started collecting parts and looking at the build. 4k in the grand scheme isn't to much. Still haven't got the block in the mail yet. I realize it is an added expense that might not be as cost effective hp/dollar, nitrous would be cheaper or heck a smaller pulley might even get me there. Goal is 1100-1200 hp that will be streetable and live for a bit. Another goal is to not pull things off to make them better (this is inevitable with race cars, but trying to reduce it).

 

[80FoxCoupe]

Here is my cyl head setup. BES cnc ported gen2 castings, Ferrea valves, ti retainers, PAC 1234x, ARP cam cap bolts, ARP 12mm headstuds, comp stg 2 blower cams.

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