Road and Track Article on the PP2 - It's not a track car

[martinjlm]

I was half joking about the limited/raptor because it’s getting the raptor engine. You wouldn’t be taking the limited to Baja 1000 ;) with the debate going on here, every vehicle in the lineup has its purpose

This is true. Every vehicle in these specialty segments have their purpose. Where the fight appears to be here in this thread is that by all appearances, Ford seemed to be lining up the PP2 package to be a direct competitor to SS 1LE, then backed off at the 11th hour. PP1 is already a freakin' awesome street / drag strip car so for PP2 to be just a little more of the same doesn't make a whole lot of sense. GT350 is an awesome track car, but at significantly more $$ than the equally capable SS 1LE. When Ford goes to the trouble of making all the track-related references when describing the development and testing of the PP2 and puts tires on it that are among the best for road track work, but suck for casual street driving, at least in terms of tread life, it's very difficult for some (self included) to believe that the initial intent for PP2 was anything other than to be an SS 1LE fighter.

It does make sense to realize that the small minority of Mustang buyers, even PP2 buyers, that will actually take these cars to the track can spend a little more money to add coolers to make them more track ready. Some would argue that Chevrolet should have done that with SS 1LE so that those who don't take them to the track don't have to shoulder the extra expense of the coolers. Two things about that positioning though...

1. Even with the coolers, the SS 1LE is not an expensive car, especially for what it does.
2. People who even know what an SS 1LE is are more likely to consider tracking the car than "casual" Camaro buyers. Especially true with 6th Gen given the extra coolers and explicitly stated track warranty. Everybody I know who has a 6th Gen 1LE (7 for those keeping "track") or 6th Gen ZL1 (3) tracks their car. Every....Single....One. And I'm not even counting the guy that has a blue SS 1LE that parks in the same garage at work (picture below). I've never met him, but I've seen track numbers on his car, and I have checked the YT channel he has displayed on his windows, so when I finally do meet him, he'll be number 8 of 8. And guy #8 apparently DDs his SS 1LE. (Hmmm...thought that wasn't possible) That's why the sales figures for 1LE is as low as it is. You don't buy one unless you know what it is and intend to use it that way. You don't buy it just because you like black hoods and duckbill spoilers.

From my perspective, PP2 is a really good car, but doesn't offer enough differentiation from a PP1, if it is a "street / dragstrip" car and doesn't offer the no holds barred content required to make it a road track car that I would buy. If I were NOT tracking a car and was in the market for a Mustang, I'd go PP1 to avoid the fast wearing Cup 2 tires on the PP2. If I was buying a Mustang for the track I'd probably just go straight to GT350, new or used. Third choice would be buy a new PP2 and curse Ford under my breath while getting the extra coolers installed. Or I'd just save some $$ and buy an SS 1LE.

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[Silver Bullitt]

This is true. Every vehicle in these specialty segments have their purpose. Where the fight appears to be here in this thread is that by all appearances, Ford seemed to be lining up the PP2 package to be a direct competitor to SS 1LE, then backed off at the 11th hour. PP1 is already a freakin' awesome street / drag strip car so for PP2 to be just a little more of the same doesn't make a whole lot of sense. GT350 is an awesome track car, but at significantly more $$ than the equally capable SS 1LE. When Ford goes to the trouble of making all the track-related references when describing the development and testing of the PP2 and puts tires on it that are among the best for road track work, but suck for casual street driving, at least in terms of tread life, it's very difficult for some (self included) to believe that the initial intent for PP2 was anything other than to be an SS 1LE fighter.

It does make sense to realize that the small minority of Mustang buyers, even PP2 buyers, that will actually take these cars to the track can spend a little more money to add coolers to make them more track ready. Some would argue that Chevrolet should have done that with SS 1LE so that those who don't take them to the track don't have to shoulder the extra expense of the coolers. Two things about that positioning though...

1. Even with the coolers, the SS 1LE is not an expensive car, especially for what it does.
2. People who even know what an SS 1LE is are more likely to consider tracking the car than "casual" Camaro buyers. Especially true with 6th Gen given the extra coolers and explicitly stated track warranty. Everybody I know who has a 6th Gen 1LE (7 for those keeping "track") or 6th Gen ZL1 (3) tracks their car. Every....Single....One. And I'm not even counting the guy that has a blue SS 1LE that parks in the same garage at work (picture below). I've never met him, but I've seen track numbers on his car, and I have checked the YT channel he has displayed on his windows, so when I finally do meet him, he'll be number 8 of 8. And guy #8 apparently DDs his SS 1LE. (Hmmm...thought that wasn't possible) That's why the sales figures for 1LE is as low as it is. You don't buy one unless you know what it is and intend to use it that way. You don't buy it just because you like black hoods and duckbill spoilers.

From my perspective, PP2 is a really good car, but doesn't offer enough differentiation from a PP1, if it is a "street / dragstrip" car and doesn't offer the no holds barred content required to make it a road track car that I would buy. If I were NOT tracking a car and was in the market for a Mustang, I'd go PP1 to avoid the fast wearing Cup 2 tires on the PP2. If I was buying a Mustang for the track I'd probably just go straight to GT350, new or used. Third choice would be buy a new PP2 and curse Ford under my breath while getting the extra coolers installed. Or I'd just save some $$ and buy an SS 1LE.

I find it ironic that one of the most level headed posters on a Mustang forum is a Camaro guy.

I am anxious to find out just how far the PP2 can be pushed without any overheating issues. Maybe Ford's intent was to offer a track capable car in stock form for the average Joe running an occasional HPDE for fun. Anything more, and it should be a GT350.

 

[martinjlm]

I find it ironic that one of the most level headed posters on a Mustang forum is a Camaro guy.

I am anxious to find out just how far the PP2 can be pushed without any overheating issues. Maybe Ford's intent was to offer a track capable car in stock form for the average Joe running an occasional HPDE for fun. Anything more, and it should be a GT350.

I appreciate the compliment.

To be fair, I spent my last 10 years at GM in Competitor Intelligence. That included telling the Camaro team how good a car the Mustang is, and what to expect Ford to do to improve it going forward. I'm used to seeing both sides of an issue and being able to see the good in "the other guys' cars". Same with talking to the Corvette team about Porsche and Ferrari, and the truck teams about F-150, Ram 1500, Ranger, Tacoma, etc. You learn quickly to understand the good points of each product. I've been accused of "promoting the other team" more times than I care to remember.

I retired from GM and now I work at a data research / consulting company in their automotive group doing pretty much the same thing. Forecasting what's coming, evaluating powertrain technologies and helping our information customers with analysis of the automotive market. I can't play favorites.

 

[SlaughterOfTheSoul]

I appreciate the compliment.

To be fair, I spent my last 10 years at GM in Competitor Intelligence. That included telling the Camaro team how good a car the Mustang is, and what to expect Ford to do to improve it going forward. I'm used to seeing both sides of an issue and being able to see the good in "the other guys' cars". Same with talking to the Corvette team about Porsche and Ferrari, and the truck teams about F-150, Ram 1500, Ranger, Tacoma, etc. You learn quickly to understand the good points of each product. I've been accused of "promoting the other team" more times than I care to remember.

I retired from GM and now I work at a data research / consulting company in their automotive group doing pretty much the same thing. Forecasting what's coming, evaluating powertrain technologies and helping our information customers with analysis of the automotive market. I can't play favorites.

A professional devil's advocate, if you will.

 

[martinjlm]

A professional devil's advocate, if you will.

Bingo!!

 

[WildHorse]

I find it ironic that one of the most level headed posters on a Mustang forum is a Camaro guy.

Until you mention that a nuttin special base GT beat 2 z06 supercharged vettes, 1le ss, & 1le zl1 in a little road action.. then they become babbling idiots throwing every insult known to mankind.

 

[w3rkn]

I disagree about generalized. You know who on here has turned it into fact. I agree around town. One could argue in the real world on regular roads it’s a push. My boss was more fun around town than the 350 is. You literally felt like you were driving a race car with the side pipes, Lopey idle etc. can you track the 302? Yup, there is just a laundry list of prep that needs to be done if you plan on doing that, including a trans cooler scoop and brake cooling ducts. To assume that the (faster than a 302) PP2 doesn’t need some prep for track use is where the argument of the PP2 and 350 are the “same” is lost. If you want to argue that the PP2 is “better or faster” in some places then so be it. This is why the 350 is more money, it has legit hardware where it’s needed. Let’s not forget the 16 tech packs and limp mode. So if you want to say a PP2= 350, then it becomes essentially a 16tech pack 350 with 350R tires on it. And yes, on a track, it won’t be a difference with an average joe. Anyone who has done a track day will agree it’s more about the driver. Miatas passing corvettes is not so crazy sounding as it would be on the street

I don't disagree.

But set aside all those^ reasons, some of which are "felt/thrill-factor" differences, rather than actual performance. I am saying the GT350's added $15k gives you that nth degree. Or if you like, the GT350 Shelby takes you from the 90 percentile... to the 97+ percentile of top performance of cars...

Lets not forget, the S550 Mustang GT can be put up alongside anything the motorsports world has to offer, and can perform. But taken to a higher level, who wants to own a BMW M2/M4 or even a Porsche, when you can own a 2019 GT350..? And get more looks...



But.. none of that^ subtracts from the performance that the basic Mustang GT (2019), offers up of to the driver..

Specially when that Mustang GT is configured in the "Tremor" package (ie: Performance Package lvl2), and optioned with GT350'esque magneride & a brand new gen3 coyote engine with 460/480hp, sitting on 305's in a squatted stance...!


Hard to argue that the Mustang tremor package... isn't well suited to learning and teaching and performing… and has a suburb platform, to build off of....

 

[mustang1]

how much heat transfer is there from exhaust ?

 

[TexasRebel]

I'm throwing my hat in the ring for DDing a '16 GTPP.

I sure like the 20 MPG more than the 13 I got with the F250 (which I held onto), and it keeps me much drier than the Fat Bob.

pushing 60k miles and still easily on the 2nd set of tires. Michelin PS3+

 

[jake_zx2]

I would personally LOVE to get back on topic, as I said in one of my previous posts.

Anyone in here currently own/track a PP2? Anyone who went from a GT350 to a PP2 and wants to give their input on the 2 of them compared?

*achem*

Yeah, guess when you're so upset about being wrong, you don't really have the maturity level to let things go and agree to disagree

ANYWAYS, Anyone in here currently own/track a PP2? Anyone who went from a GT350 to a PP2 and wants to give their input on the 2 of them compared?

 

[jake_zx2]

how much heat transfer is there from exhaust ?

I would guess quite a bit... have you been on track before and after that setup? what kind of differences did you notice (if any)?

 

[mustang1]

I would guess quite a bit... have you been on track before and after that setup? what kind of differences did you notice (if any)?

that is a google image. Not my car.

 

[jake_zx2]

that is a google image. Not my car.

Ohh, okay, my bad. But yeah, I've heard wrapping the surrounding exhaust and making the swap to a higher viscosity diff fluid works wonders on these cars. I'd honestly doubt any HPDE'er would really NEED a diff cooler

 

[millhouse]

That's why the sales figures for 1LE is as low as it is. You don't buy one unless you know what it is and intend to use it that way. You don't buy it just because you like black hoods and duckbill spoilers.

And yet, it happens. This entire thread... https://www.mustang6g.com/forums/threads/bullitt-vs-2ss-1le.107155/ pits the 1LE against the Bullitt for a gentleman that says he will never see a track. The reason for the 1LE? He likes the wheels and the steering wheel.

From my perspective, PP2 is a really good car, but doesn't offer enough differentiation from a PP1, if it is a "street / dragstrip" car and doesn't offer the no holds barred content required to make it a road track car that I would buy. If I were NOT tracking a car and was in the market for a Mustang, I'd go PP1 to avoid the fast wearing Cup 2 tires on the PP2. If I was buying a Mustang for the track I'd probably just go straight to GT350, new or used. Third choice would be buy a new PP2 and curse Ford under my breath while getting the extra coolers installed. Or I'd just save some $$ and buy an SS 1LE.

I agree, though I doubt those PP2 are costing Ford much above a PP1 to manufacture. I think Ford would have been better served with making the Bullitt drag-strip oriented to draw in more of the 1/4 mile warriors.

Anyone looking for function over form would be wise to go straight to the 1LE, no doubt about it. Unfortunately for GM, we are visual and egotistical creatures....we don't choose what is logical.

 

[Hack]

Anyone looking for function over form would be wise to go straight to the 1LE, no doubt about it. Unfortunately for GM, we are visual and egotistical creatures....we don't choose what is logical.

If you were track only, possibly. But for most people 95% or more of their driving is on the street. So function on the road is top priority.

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