Road and Track Article on the PP2 - It's not a track car

Discussion in 'Mustang S550 General Forums' started by JD_GTPP2, Jul 17, 2018.

  1. JD_GTPP2

    JD_GTPP2 Well-Known Member

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    #1 JD_GTPP2, Jul 17, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2018
    I bought the August Road and Track issue today just for the PP2 article. The crux of the "not a track car" portion is below:


    This is verbatim from the article:

    R&T: Unlike the GT350, the PP2 doesn't have a differential- or transmission-oil coolers to allow for extended track time. One has to ask, why weren't they added?

    "We obviously knew we could do that," Barnes (Mustang Vehicle Engineering manager Tom Barnes) says. "But I'd just say that we didn't want to go there. And there are a lot of different reasons why. This (the PP2) is sandwiched between the GT350 and the PP1. If you start to add those (coolers), you add complexity, engineering, weight, cost. In the end, we didn't want to go to that full track capability. We thought this was a good place."

    R&T: If you want a full-on track car, get a Shelby GT350R or a Chevrolet Camaro SS 1LE. If you want a car to live on the road, the PP2 is your choice.

    Barnes says that while people will still think it's a 1LE competitor, and it'll perform well against a 1LE in a single lap, it's just not the right car for an extended lapping session. The aim of this passion project was to hone the ultimate street Mustang from a car they had already spent time developing.


    :doh:
     
  2. Austinj427

    Austinj427 Well-Known Member

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    They probably should have given it coolers.

    I am interested in how long it can lap though, my PP1 would give me warnings occasionally but I never actually overheated anything.

    If it can run for a full 20 minute session in temps below 90, that will cover a significant portion of the HPDE crowd.
     
  3. WildHorse

    WildHorse N/A or GO HOME

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    Thermowrap the exhaust closest to the diff and run full synthetic. Problem solved(ish).
     
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  4. JohnD

    JohnD Legend in his own mind

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    The problem is that the PP2 sells for more than a 1SS 1LE, due in no small part to the extraneous junk that Ford forces you to buy now when you order any PP package. Glad I got my base PP car when I did, there is absolutely no way I would buy a new Mustang given their policies now.

    If I had to do it all over again I would for sure buy the 1SS 1LE, get a better track car and save a few bucks in the process. The only thing I don't like about the 1LE is the 20" wheels, but I've already bought 2 sets of wheels to replace the narrow heavy wheels that Ford put on the PP1 Mustang, so it's a wash on that issue anyway.

    I've never owned a GM car and am not a GM fanboy, but I have to give them major credit for what they did with the 1LE. To me, this just looks like Ford trying to protect GT350 sales.
     
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  5. OP
    OP
    JD_GTPP2

    JD_GTPP2 Well-Known Member

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    If my dead PP2 is somehow miraculously resurrected after its engine failure I plan to go this route as a starting point before the car ever sees the track. If that doesn't work, the folks at Full Tilt Boogie Racing have a differential cooling kit, while MMR sells an oil cooling kit
     
  6. bluebeastsrt

    bluebeastsrt Oh boy

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    I have to agree about GT350 sales. The problem with the PP2. Is it rubs up to close to the GT350 if it was spec'd correctly. Where as since the ZL1 benefited from the Zo6 Corvettes running gear. There is a large enough performance gap. Between the ZL1 and the 1Le. That GM didnt need to worry about f$%king over the guys that spent the big bucks on the top dog Camaro. Since Ford is so late to the game with a GT500. They have to worry about making a GT that'll hang with a GT350 that cost 15 grand more. So they nutter the PP2 slightly.
     
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  7. PRE-Z06

    PRE-Z06 Active Member

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    https://www.mustang6g.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106844
     
  8. grabber yote

    grabber yote Corn Fed

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    I don't understand why all the premium options are mandatory when ordering a PP2... I got my base PP 17 GT because I wanted a more stripped down pony car... I have leather, heated/cooled seats, nav etc in my 2017 F150
     
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  9. grabber yote

    grabber yote Corn Fed

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    Ford is also pricing themselves out of the pony car market. 50k for a GT is retarded. The GT500 is gonna be outrageously priced also.
     
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  10. TomcatDriver

    TomcatDriver Well-Known Member

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    I'm confused by these two comments, in that you can get a "base" PP2, all that is required is the 301A package. You are correct about pricing though. The 1SS 1LE is an "all in" package for $7000 that includes magnaride, Recaro seats, 285/305R20s, Brembo brakes, AND cooling, a HUD and all the other goodies. $44,995 MSRP. All this while the PP2 requires 301A and therefore costs $8500 + $1595 for Recaros at $46,445 and you still don't get coolers or a bunch of other stuff.
     
  11. garagelogic

    garagelogic Well-Known Member

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    No doubt, the SS with the 1LE is the better choice for track duty. Kudos to GM for putting together such a great package for those enthusiasts who prefer to spend their time at that venue. For those who hoped the PP2 would be a direct competitor to the SS 1LE, it appears that is not what Ford was going for, so accept the fact the the GM product offers better, more consistent performance on the track and simply enjoy the car for what it is.
     
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  12. Cobra Jet

    Cobra Jet Well-Known Member

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    Fellas, read between the lies....

    Tom Barnes is essentially saying:

    If they had added the coolers to the PP2 platform, then the PP2 is treading into the GT350 territory; by doing so Ford would lose GT350 sales over the PP2, which cost less than the GT350. Why purchase a GT350 (other than those who just want the “Shelby” name), when a GT PP2 would be very close to its margin not only in sales but performance?

    I’m sure even now, without intention, the GT PP2 has encroached on the GT350...

    It’s kinda of like bringing back Mercury - why have a Mercury Milan, when the consumer is gong to buy the Ford Fusion for less with similar performance, or opt for the Lincoln MKZ with more frills?

    Or bringing back the Pontiac Trans-Am, which was essentially the same vehicle as the Camaro with merely different names and badges....
     
  13. draph

    draph Well-Known Member

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    So Ford chooses to make no compromises when they go with half inch narrower wheel up front but still with 305 tire on PP2, yet they are willing to compromise the cooling. How much difference would there really have been in performance if they compromised a bit to make it a truly square setup (tires AND wheels identical between front and back) where you could rotate the tires on "the ultimate street Mustang" to even out your tire wear on those already short-life SC 2 tires?


    For those comparing a loaded PP2, note you can get a 2SS 1LE with all the Camaro comfort features as well, including heated and cooled Recaro's, the HUD, and throw in the performance data recorder for a little over $52K MSRP. I test drove one before deciding on my PP1...if only the Camaro were better suited for DD duty...
     
  14. grabber yote

    grabber yote Corn Fed

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    I stand corrected on all premium options but why is the 301A even required with the PP2 when you can order a GT350 with base model GT 300a options? A friend of mine has a base GT350 with the 4 inch base sync system and no "fluff".
     
  15. grabber yote

    grabber yote Corn Fed

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    Moral of the story...buy a base GT and add your own aftermarket suspension, wheels and tires. You will spend less money and have a platform better suited for track duty.
     
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  16. cosmo

    cosmo Well-Known Member

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    It's stupid.

    Of course it has gotten near GT350 lap territory, they put Cup 2s on it and beefed up the suspension and added aero. The longer gear ratios help.

    But then they didn't put the proper cooling hardware on it.

    So... You have this weird mix of track parts while leaving out some critical components. They should have either put Pilots 4S tires on it with the beefier suspension and whatnot, or added the coolers in and kept the Cup 2s. Going half and half is dumb.
     
  17. TomcatDriver

    TomcatDriver Well-Known Member

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    In my opinion the 300A level trim and 4" calculator radio shouldn't even be an option in 2018. The "base" should be the 301A at the price the 300A is now. Base radios in cars like the Accent, Corolla or Civic are better. I was suprised they didn't do that for 2019, but you can still get that calculator radio.

    And someone is going to say "yea, but I don't want to pay that fancy stuff." To which I reply, a 7-8" display with Carplay and Android Auto isn't "fancy stuff" that you have to pay for in 2018. It's cheap commodity electronics that I can get from Crutchfield for a couple hundred bucks, and costs Ford even less.
     
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  18. mustang1

    mustang1 Well-Known Member

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    Chevy sells the base 1SS with the coolers for MSRP $38k. Despite the "complexity, engineering, weight, cost". Although its not clear if the transmission cooler is for both manual and automatic.
     
  19. BmacIL

    BmacIL Enginerd

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    The VEM (Barnes) and the Vehicle Line Chief botched this one badly. The whole package is pointless without the coolers. Do it right or don't do it.
     
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  20. Silver Bullitt

    Silver Bullitt Well-Known Member

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    My PP2 with active exhaust and Recaros was $38,750. I could add coolers and still be under $40K. I don't plan on tracking the car enough to worry about it. If it will go five hard laps in between some pacing laps, I'd be good with that. If I was a regular tracker, the SS 1LE would have been the better option, but I'm just not sure I would have been happy with it as a DD.
     
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