Required Upgrades for E-85?

[engineermike]

The DW440 is rated intermittent to 22V and constant at 18V. With one pump you could probably run well over 1k rwhp blown, E85 with a siphon loss.

At 70 psi, the 440 flows 375 l/hour on 13.5V. So that would be roughly 500 liter/hour at 18V and 611 liter/hour at 22V intermittent max condition. The controller is rated to 26V and 40 amps. Even with system friction losses and a siphon, that should get to 4 digits (18 lbs of boost, 68 psi fuel pressure, 8k rpm redline with 5.0, V8, 4V/Cyl on E85 with a moderately aggressive cam).

The ID fuel calculator is one of the better ones and suggests that takes about 544 liter/hour to the rails, so that leaves the rest for siphon losses and pressure drops.

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0414/1681/8852/files/DW440_Brushless_Tech_Sheet.pdf?v=1702576078
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0...-ae91-40f3-b6d1-50f495de415e.pdf?v=1702575090

Admittedly, the 440 is over twice the cost of the DW400, but should last MUCH MUCH longer and be able to be pushed harder with virtually no reduction in reliability.

At the 70 psi and 13.5 volts, the two pumps appear to only be about 5% difference. I couldn't justify the extra complication, R&D, and cost for just 5%. I don't know what happens to that difference with both running at 22 volts, though.

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[J17GT]

@engineermike @Angrey

Thanks for the insights on the pumps!

I don’t really PLAN to go a lot further with my car HP wise (currently high 700s at the wheel) but I always want my fuel system overbuilt by a lot. Knowing that my 274s likely won’t last forever, I am trying to be proactive in my planning for new pumps. It sounds like a pair of dw 400s or 440s would be way overkill (if they’d even fit) but give me ample peace of mind.

According to Radiums website, the DW400s use the same bucket/part number as the 274s.
https://www.radiumauto.com/Fuel-Pump-Hanger-2011-Ford-MustangShelby-P2165.aspx

 

[Angrey]

At the 70 psi and 13.5 volts, the two pumps appear to only be about 5% difference. I couldn't justify the extra complication, R&D, and cost for just 5%. I don't know what happens to that difference with both running at 22 volts, though.

It's not controversial to say the DW440 will last at least 2x+ as the DW400. Especially if spinning it harder.

 

[WildHorse]

I'm pretty sure it's been figured out for awhile now.

Well, I did say 'proper' . As you said, there's 2 schools of thought.

 

[Pistol_91]

Well, I did say 'proper' . As you said, there's 2 schools of thought.

There's probably a few more too LOL. I'm not sure if there is even a proper way. There's more than 1 way to skin a cat I believe. The way I see it is if it's efficient, safe, and it works then it works.
Alot of people complain about drivability issues but I think those are the same people who have a tune like a Whipple tune where the IMRC closed MPs are just disabled and it just runs on 14-26.

 

[WildHorse]

There's probably a few more too LOL. I'm not sure if there is even a proper way. There's more than 1 way to skin a cat I believe. The way I see it is if it's efficient, safe, and it works then it works.
Alot of people complain about drivability issues but I think those are the same people who have a tune like a Whipple tune where the IMRC closed MPs are just disabled and it just runs on 14-26.

Anybody compare to a BOSS 302 cause obviously IMRC delete ? There's 2012 around here on E85 & LU47's and it fricken flies with a local tune.

 

[cbrtrx]

Anybody compare to a BOSS 302 cause obviously IMRC delete ? There's 2012 around here on E85 & LU47's and it fricken flies with a local tune.

It's not as simple as just comparing a gen 1 calibration to a gen 2. Totally different.

 

[WildHorse]

Totally different.

some aspects sure, others not so much. from what I've read on the HP forums site.

 

[Pistol_91]

Anybody compare to a BOSS 302 cause obviously IMRC delete ? There's 2012 around here on E85 & LU47's and it fricken flies with a local tune.

I think I have a boss tune on my PC but don't remember. Can't remember what it looks like

 

[Grimreaper]

I did Radium, Y off of the feed line then to the back of both rails then a front crossover just to equalize pressure. Worked out great. I was using a dw400 with a bap at the time. I since have upgraded to the radium bucket with twin pumps. Still have a single feed deadhead system like that and it works very well.

How's the fuel pressure consistency at the rails with the radium rear mounted regulator? With stock pump assembly/reg and dw400 the injector pulses show up and heavily at times in the rail psi.

Not sure if you have experience with it but was wondering if reg after the rails eliminated the pulsing or most of it. Acting as a damper. Or if the equalizing front cross over helped. My one reservation with radium bucket. Especially on a Gen 2 with no oe sensor. Already running a10an feed line and bulk head fitting to bypass stock hat feed port. Gen3 logs usually show the same but ecu at least knows.

 

[cbrtrx]

How's the fuel pressure consistency at the rails with the radium rear mounted regulator? With stock pump assembly/reg and dw400 the injector pulses show up and heavily at times in the rail psi.

Not sure if you have experience with it but was wondering if reg after the rails eliminated the pulsing or most of it. Acting as a damper. Or if the equalizing front cross over helped. My one reservation with radium bucket. Especially on a Gen 2 with no oe sensor. Already running a10an feed line and bulk head fitting to bypass stock hat feed port. Gen3 logs usually show the same but ecu at least knows.

You'll always have some fluctuations which is ok. With the crossover the way I have it deadheaded it's very similar to stock and not bad at all. I've done plenty of regulator setups after the rails and the fluctuations were much worse, also depends how it's all ran, series or parallel. With tuning especially with the gen 3 I have no lag in commanded fueling with the regulator in the back, there were some things I addressed in the tune to help with that though. Another thing to mention with it deadheaded my fuel temps average about 25 degrees cooler then having a conventional return style setup. For 800 to 900 rwhp the twin pump radium bucket works well enough, over that power I'd recommend a triple pump or a brushless setup.

 

[Angrey]

You'll always get some pressure noise at the rails, just simply from the injectors opening suddenly and slamming shut. I tried to install some dampeners, more for reducing injector noise than anything, but it was just too much of a traffic jam and using AN fittings on the dampeners made them long and cumbersome to fit and you want them as close to the rails as possible for maximum effect. The issue scales with size of the injectors opening and slamming.

There's probably a second order fluctuation with lag from the regulator, but I'm guessing the computer is fast enough to smooth most of that out. Or at the very least, the tuner can address the biggest issues (like a drop at tip WOT tip in).

 

[Grimreaper]

Good info from you both. Thank you. Have definitely seen the resonance worse with larger 100lb injectors. The roush rails are rather shallow and was on the fence with installing and plumbing a balance line and am rails. Going to move forward on that to see if it improves any.

 

[Blueflash]

Hey fellows. Been lurking here for a bit. Lots of knowledgeable ppl here. Have a 2018 F150 Whipple stage one. I gradually brought the ethanol content up, and now she is on E85. Stock fuel system. My wot LAMBDA is fine, but it threw lean codes on both banks either due to the fuel trims or the injector pulse width?
I'm wondering, can the DI/PI blend be tweaked, or am I going to need a boost a pump?

 

[K4fxd]

Ask your tuner. If you are self tuned post a log WOT.

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