Pricing motor build

[MadCow]

So how fast can I realistically shoot for that's affordable and won't make my car to an all out race car but will be fun and drivable?

Where you are now seems like that. 700whp should be a fun and quick DD.

And buying an old Fox to race is a better idea. There's a reason why they make up 50% of any field at any drag strip on race day. Now Coyote swapped foxes aren't a dime a dozen. Matter of fact, some of the numbers people are layin down with stock motor/trans 2011-2016 Mustangs would be awful close to the 7s in a sub 3000lb fox. Not to mention having a solid axle.

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[esacteksab]

This is purely my opinion based on a very limited experience. I've owned the car a year, I have a pile of parts here that should make >800RWHP I know exactly how much this costs. Now, how long it will last is another question entirely (one I will find out for better or worse). Based on this, and the cost of other power adders, I have a pretty good idea of what it'd cost with a <insert power adder here>.

750RWHP or under seems to survive with basic supporting mods (clutch if manual), axles, OPG, Crank Gear (optional but highly recommended - nay sayers be damned).

Above that, it seems to start getting iffy on longevity. How many pulls/passes can an 850+ RWHP S550 make before it makes it's last?

There are a couple of people who either have or have on their way sleeved motors. They're shooting for a lot of power, and they've found the limits of various drivetrain components (differentials, transmissions, drive shafts, half shafts, etc. etc.).

I think we still have a lot to learn on what breaks when and how. There are some people who are taking one for the team and finding this out for us. If you don't have deep enough pockets, keep your puppy ass on the porch and let the big dogs play. In a year or two, we'll know exactly the recipe to build a 1000RWHP S550 and have it survive.

I wouldn't be afraid to say $50k to build a 1000RWHP S550, but if you don't have $10k laying around to repair a transmission or a short block or a pair of cylinder heads or a pair of turbos or <insert shit here>, you'd only hate yourself for blowing your shit up and having no way to quickly fix it.

But what do I know? I'm just some guy on the internet with an opinion and a keyboard.

 

[wazslow]

Making 7 or 8 second power is honestly the easy part. Getting the chassis/electronics/rear/trans/convertor/suspension/safety stuff to do it is the harder part. Stick with a low 10/high 9 sec street able car and you will be much happier in the long run.

You do realize if you go sub 8.50, you are required a 25.5+ chassis which means a funny car cage. That severely limits the streetability.

 

[spdbydesign]

8.99 can be done at a very reasonable cost, IMO. (Then again I come from the GTR world, where anything here looks like peanuts cost wise, lol.)

We went 9.0 @ 157mph on a stock engine.

7's...well...in a S550 heavy chassis, good luck keeping any sort of streetability and full interior in the car.

The 6R80 Auto, with currently available upgrades, will never hold this sort of power. (Our built 6R80 didn't hold up long at the 1000+ whp level, as it only survived two drag strip visits.)

I'm not sure we will even see them (6R80) in the mid 8's with any long term reliability due to the weight of this car.

Sure, we'll see vendors touting a halo pass timeslip, but "reliability" is rarely mentioned...or failures at the vendor level. It's not good for business, so most tend to keep their failures off the forums.

If you are SERIOUS about running sub 8.50's, go straight to a Sleeved or Billet Block + Glide/TH400 and don't look back.

I'd start with a base model over a Premium model, as you'll be tossing the seats in favor of lightweight drag seats.....plus removing other interior as needed.

7's or even mid 8's won't make for a daily driven, or even weekend street car. It would require a drag car type interior with full safety equipment, cage, etc.

In my mind, the S550 at the street car level is a low 9 sec 6R80 car.

When discussing 8's, my faith in the 6R80 is low. If I REALLY wanted a 7/8 sec car, I'd go straight to a drag oriented transmission.

 

[doodguy]

8.99 can be done at a very reasonable cost, IMO. (Then again I come from the GTR world, where anything here looks like peanuts cost wise, lol.)

We went 9.0 @ 157mph on a stock engine.

7's...well...in a S550 heavy chassis, good luck keeping any sort of streetability and full interior in the car.

The 6R80 Auto, with currently available upgrades, will never hold this sort of power. (Our built 6R80 didn't hold up long at the 1000+ whp level.)

I'm not sure we will even see them (6R80) in the mid 8's with any long term reliability due to the weight of this car.

Sure, we'll see vendors touting a timeslip, but "reliability" is rarely mentioned...or failures at the vendor level. It's not good for business, so most tend to keep their failures off the forums.

If you are SERIOUS about running sub 8.50's, go straight to a Sleeved or Billet Block + Glide/TH400 and don't look back.

I'd start with a base model over a Premium model, as you'll be tossing the seats in favor of lightweight drag seats.....plus removing other interior as needed.

7's or even mid 8's won't make for a daily driven, or even weekend street car. It would require a drag car type interior with full safety equipment, cage, etc.

In my mind, the S550 at the street car level is a low 9 sec 6R80 car.

When discussing 8's, my faith in the 6R80 is low. If I REALLY wanted a 7/8 sec car, I'd go straight to a drag oriented transmission.

Thank you for this honest and truthful write up. The funny thing is back in the day when I raced my 2001 Camaro SS was trying to figure out how to get to 10's much of this same advice was given albeit with different numbers.

I know 7's is a longggg stretch. I don't know how fast I'm shooting for to be honest, just want it to be fast. Hell I haven't even run 10's yet even though my car is capable of it. I have to learn how to drive it. Slicks are on order.

I wouldn't complain about running mid 9's if I can do it affordably. I guess I just want to figure out a reasonable time I can reasonably shoot for and figure out how to get there.

I'm not a hardcore racer. I enjoy the roller coaster feeling, and (admittedly) the occasional blow the doors off another nice car in mexico. I like 0 to 80/100 romps and if I can get there in 3 seconds sweet!

Just trying to figure things out put a reality into perspective and you guys are helping me figure things out. I appreciate that.

 

[spdbydesign]

If you really want my opinion, lol....I wouldn't run a 6R80 or MT82 period....for anything sub 9.0

That's my honest thoughts.

When I first came into this market, I thought the 6R80 had a chance. But now I understand why most swap to a glide or TH400 out the gate if building a car for purposed drag racing competitively.

These other transmissions are cheaper to maintain, less failure/proven, and the aftermarket upgrades are plentiful. (Besides the fact there's less shifts to make, significantly cutting E.T.)

Yes, here comes the "Hellion went 8.7x on a 6R80".....Yes, I understand that and kudos on a solid pass. I'm not saying it CAN'T be done....

I'm saying it won't be reliable with as heavy as this car is. Yes, you can rebuild it when it breaks...which will be often if you're at the drag strip every weekend. But this is not a cheap trans to break. It's not a cheap trans to spend labor swapping in and out at the consumer level.

I think many times us, in the vendor community, lose sight of what we're asking from our customers.

We show them data, but not our failures, and we don't set realistic expectations from what they can expect trying to make our upgrades survive in their daily driven cars.

We show our record passes, but not our 100 attempts to get there, and what it took.

My point is, can you go 8.x with a 6R80 (forget MT-82, sorry)......yes you 100% can.

But if this is a car you plan to race frequently, I don't find it to be a reliable option.

I plan to have some serious heart to hearts with our customers sourcing our upcoming TT kits.

I want to set very clear expectations, so there is no surprises when drivetrain starts breaking. (Because it will, and most customers want to try to "make things work" cutting corners everywhere they can to save a dollar.)

It's cheaper to build once, then build twice, if you already know OE components are going to be pushed to the failure point.

This is where I think, we, in the vendor community, have an obligation to steer our customers towards realistic expectations....even if it means losing the sale, because the customer can't afford to race at their desired level.

If you want to follow along on our progress to running 8's, check out our info thread in my signature. I'm documenting the good and the bad, an open book. No secrets here.

 

[BMR Tech]

8.99 can be done at a very reasonable cost, IMO. (Then again I come from the GTR world, where anything here looks like peanuts cost wise, lol.)

We went 9.0 @ 157mph on a stock engine.

7's...well...in a S550 heavy chassis, good luck keeping any sort of streetability and full interior in the car.

The 6R80 Auto, with currently available upgrades, will never hold this sort of power. (Our built 6R80 didn't hold up long at the 1000+ whp level, as it only survived two drag strip visits.)

I'm not sure we will even see them (6R80) in the mid 8's with any long term reliability due to the weight of this car.

Sure, we'll see vendors touting a halo pass timeslip, but "reliability" is rarely mentioned...or failures at the vendor level. It's not good for business, so most tend to keep their failures off the forums.

If you are SERIOUS about running sub 8.50's, go straight to a Sleeved or Billet Block + Glide/TH400 and don't look back.

I'd start with a base model over a Premium model, as you'll be tossing the seats in favor of lightweight drag seats.....plus removing other interior as needed.

7's or even mid 8's won't make for a daily driven, or even weekend street car. It would require a drag car type interior with full safety equipment, cage, etc.

In my mind, the S550 at the street car level is a low 9 sec 6R80 car.

When discussing 8's, my faith in the 6R80 is low. If I REALLY wanted a 7/8 sec car, I'd go straight to a drag oriented transmission.

This is a great post. As for failures, I fully intend on sharing my success or failure with my new combo and the 6R80.

On that note, I think there is more than meets the eye. Your built 6R80 didn't last long, yet my stock from Ford 6R80 trans has made about 20 passes at 150+, has almost 6500 miles on it, and is beat on up to very high speeds every weekend

So, does it depend on the path chosen? Does 150-200lbs raceweight difference, make it go from lasting stock to not lasting when built? Or.....is a turbo car harder on the 6R80 when using a transbrake? Those are things I think I want to learn.

My 100% stock 6R80 has outlasted everything else on the car. I find that very amazing, considering the drive line failures that I've experienced.

I am having the owner and builder of the quickest and fastest 6R80 Mustang on the planet build mine. He has made a ton of mid 8 second passes without issue on his, with a best of 8.4@165. I HOPE to have that luck. lol

If the 6R80 fails on me, I will not be putting a non OD GM trans in my car. I will contact my friend Brian @ BTS and have him put me together an indestructible 4R100. OD and L/U, with a programmable controller that I can use with my good ole lap top. :cheers:

 

[spdbydesign]

This is a great post. As for failures, I fully intend on sharing my success or failure with my new combo and the 6R80.

On that note, I think there is more than meets the eye. Your built 6R80 didn't last long, yet my stock from Ford 6R80 trans has made about 20 passes at 150+, has almost 6500 miles on it, and is beat on up to very high speeds every weekend

So, does it depend on the path chosen? Does 150-200lbs raceweight difference, make it go from lasting stock to not lasting when built? Or.....is a turbo car harder on the 6R80 when using a transbrake? Those are things I think I want to learn.

My 100% stock 6R80 has outlasted everything else on the car. I find that very amazing, considering the drive line failures that I've experienced.

I am having the owner and builder of the quickest and fastest 6R80 Mustang on the planet build mine. He has made a ton of mid 8 second passes without issue on his, with a best of 8.4@165. I HOPE to have that luck. lol

If the 6R80 fails on me, I will not be putting a non OD GM trans in my car. I will contact my friend Brian @ BTS and have him put me together an indestructible 4R100. OD and L/U, with a programmable controller that I can use with my good ole lap top. :cheers:

I think the main issue is most are looking to the 11-14 chassis, as their "pulse" on what the 15+ cars will see.

The truth is, this car is entirely different, it's MUCH MUCH heavier....and with the overwhelming majority of these cars being daily driven vehicles...we won't see the weight reduction mods being done.....like these gutted 11-14 drag car type builds in the near term. (Eventually, sure.)

Since these are new cars, most want their plush leather interior and amenities.

If they wanted a drag car, they would have probably started with a cheaper model, such as a 11-14 GT.

To go 160+ mph in this heavy car, you're looking at 1100+ whp.

That is going to really tax a 6R80 @ 4000+ lbs w/ driver , IMHO.

Again, I respect and can appreciate those that run a solid timeslip on this trans.

I think 15x MPH, 900-1000whp, can be done somewhat reliably at the upper end of what this trans can support in the 2015+ specific chassis.

If we're talking 160+, aka the solid 7/8 sec passes this thread is about....no, I don't think the 6R80 is the trans to use.

There's a HUGE difference between a 8.9x and a 8.2x, 15x MPH vs 16x/17x.

Two totally different builds, different turbo setups, etc.

Hell, there's a big difference between 150mph and 159mph in the 1/4 in HP.

 

[BMR Tech]

Yeah, Bretts car approaches 3800 in mid 8 @ 160+ trim.

Seeing this formula/result...I am going to do my best to get closer to that weight.

 

[spdbydesign]

Yeah, Bretts car approaches 3800 in mid 8 @ 160+ trim.

Seeing this formula/result...I am going to do my best to get closer to that weight.

Yeah, that's much lighter than the 4095 lbs ours weighed in at Bowling Green.

Doesn't Brett make a living, or at least good side income, building 6R80's for the public?

 

[BMR Tech]

Yeah, that's much lighter than the 4095 lbs ours weighed in at Bowling Green.

Doesn't Brett make a living, or at least good side income, building 6R80's for the public?

Nope. He is a high level mechanic for Mercedes-Benz.

He just does a few on the side for people. He is selective too.

His car is 100% built by himself, features a CPR Single Turbo Kit with a simple Aluminator replica he built himself w/ no sleeves and his built 6R80 Trans.

He has also developed a bump feature for the 6R80 too....which I dont think he shares to anyone.

 

[BMR Tech]

Yeah, that's much lighter than the 4095 lbs ours weighed in at Bowling Green.

Yes, your car is heavy.

But if we want to break it down....as you mentioned, we are indeed talking 7/8 and 160 traps or higher.

Would you agree that most that build a car for that goal are not going to be 4100lbs in race trim?

I mean, 3800lbs and 8.4@160+ and 4100lbs and barely make passes on built 6R80....there are flaws in the comparison, that should be accounted for when discussing these builds.

What I am saying is, because you had failures without getting into the 8's doesnt really mean much to many people because they may not have you exact combo and weigh 4100lbs.

 

[spdbydesign]

Yes, your car is heavy.

But if we want to break it down....as you mentioned, we are indeed talking 7/8 and 160 traps or higher.

Would you agree that most that build a car for that goal are not going to be 4100lbs in race trim?

I mean, 3800lbs and 8.4@160+ and 4100lbs and barely make passes on built 6R80....there are flaws in the comparison, that should be accounted for when discussing these builds.

What I am saying is, because you had failures without getting into the 8's doesnt really mean much to many people because they may not have you exact combo and weigh 4100lbs.

I think 99% of customers out there don't want to gut their street car, for the occasional drag strip visit a few times per year.

I think they don't fully understand or appreciate what it takes to get a car to run 7's....or even high 8's.

They just see a Facebook or YouTube marketing video by xxx vendor and think with "$x,xxx" dollars....I'm going to run x.xx timeslip.

They send their money, install their FI kit, and don't understand why the car can't break out of the 10's, lol.

I know this, as I have already gotten these calls from existing Forced Induction customers on this forum inquiring about the switch to our upcoming TT kit, lol.

This thread is a prime example. We have a customer who wants to run 7's on a near zero budget.

He has no clue what sort of money he is even looking at, yet thinks his plan is possibly doable.

I don't meant this to be rude, as it's not. It's the truth we, in the vendor community, face every single day with these customer interactions.

It's pocket book vs expectations vs reality.

Now, I'm not saying the 6R80 won't survive a 8.xx pass. You may be the unicorn in the group and never have an issue.

But if a customer calls me today, tells me he wants to run 8.7x like a bracket car every Friday night the tracks are open, my suggestion won't be retaining the 6R80.

There's a big difference between record setting passes and consistent passes.

Call me jaded...lol.

 

[BMR Tech]

No doubt. I agree completely.

As for gutting - my car isn't gutted and weighs 3900lbs.

That is with nice Corbeau seats, high end wheels, nice big aerospace (not drag) brakes up front and a few unnecessary pieces removed, but also a big heavy 9" IRS and a 100+lb DOM Steel Bar.

People see my car and say "wow, that is nice, I figured it would be a racecar"

So, I think getting a base auto car to 3800lbs is VERY easy if you have the money. I am planning to go to S197 Spindles and our Full Tubular Front end with DA Coilovers soon...which I suspect should save 80+lbs. This modification will be very street friendly, but will cost a nice penny or two.

Breaking it down again - 8.9@154 @ 3900 with a 100% stock much more used 6R and 9.0@157 at 4100 with very minimally used and built 6R.

Something there doesnt add up to me. Let's find out what it may be!

 

[spdbydesign]

No doubt. I agree completely.

As for gutting - my car isn't gutted and weighs 3900lbs.

That is with nice Corbeau seats, high end wheels, nice big aerospace (not drag) brakes up front and a few unnecessary pieces removed, but also a big heavy 9" IRS and a 100+lb DOM Steel Bar.

People see my car and say "wow, that is nice, I figured it would be a racecar"

So, I think getting a base auto car to 3800lbs is VERY easy if you have the money. I am planning to go to S197 Spindles and our Full Tubular Front end with DA Coilovers soon...which I suspect should save 80+lbs. This modification will be very street friendly, but will cost a nice penny or two.

Breaking it down again - 8.9@154 @ 3900 with a 100% stock much more used 6R and 9.0@157 at 4100 with very minimally used 6R.

Something there doesnt add up to me. Let's find out what it may be!

I'll leave you to do that, as I'm in the middle of swapping in a sleeved MPR long block + powerglide trans. :cheers:

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