Performance Pack Wheels

[chopsui]

Sorry to start this forum off on a negative foot, but Ford, if you're reading this - and I know you are - please consider offering another wheel option for the PP. I realize looks may be in the eye of the beholder, but I don't like those busy mesh-style wheels and there's definitely no arguing that they're going to be a serious pain to clean after a track day. Give us a light weight, open spoke design. Something that looks like the 20's would be great. I'd even be willing to pay more for the privilege!

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[Free Agent]

I'm okay with them. They will be a pain to keep clean, but they are black and won't show brake dust as much. Of course I have a very similar aftermarket wheel set on my GTO right now in black as well.

Black 5 spokes in 20 inch and lightweight Ford???

 

[m4a1mustang]

If you want light wheels you might want to look somewhere other than OEM Ford wheels... unless they've decided to start offering forged Rays or Alcoas or something.

My guess is these will be popular and very easy to sell, so you'll be able to offset the price of your favorite lightweight wheels and better-than-P-Zero tires by selling your PP wheels and tires. That's my plan!

 

[likeaboss]

I'd like Ford to give me a matte black option.

 

[Whiskey11]

I wish Ford would make what they are planning for the PP wheels as standard width for all the cars and go wider on the PP cars. 255's are a JOKE, 275's on the rear are a JOKE when your car weighs as much (still going to be over 3000lbs) as it does. Ford needs to really consider wider wheels/tires as standard... while on that subject, how about a tire diameter that isn't 27"... it's becoming more difficult to find performance tires over 26" on an 18" rim... Sure 19" wheels may have more options in that size but you get the added rotational inertia which reduces acceleration and braking capabilities.

 

[Grimace427]

I wish Ford would make what they are planning for the PP wheels as standard width for all the cars and go wider on the PP cars. 255's are a JOKE, 275's on the rear are a JOKE when your car weighs as much (still going to be over 3000lbs) as it does. Ford needs to really consider wider wheels/tires as standard... while on that subject, how about a tire diameter that isn't 27"... it's becoming more difficult to find performance tires over 26" on an 18" rim... Sure 19" wheels may have more options in that size but you get the added rotational inertia which reduces acceleration and braking capabilities.

How wide would you go from the factory? What kind of tires would actually be acceptable? $700 Michelin Cups or $250 BFG Rivals? Would those tires be simply for magazine comparo bragging rights or for actual enthusiasts to hit the track with? I can't really blame Ford for putting normal street tires on the Mustang, even PP equipped when so many people bitch about so many other trivial things. The cost of tires would outweigh the cry for true enthusiasts to get proper performance tires in the end.

Of course those Pirelli PZeros ain't cheap either, but even the 285 rears on the Boss light up pretty easily with too much throttle input.

 

[Whiskey11]

How wide would you go from the factory? What kind of tires would actually be acceptable? $700 Michelin Cups or $250 BFG Rivals? Would those tires be simply for magazine comparo bragging rights or for actual enthusiasts to hit the track with? I can't really blame Ford for putting normal street tires on the Mustang, even PP equipped when so many people bitch about so many other trivial things. The cost of tires would outweigh the cry for true enthusiasts to get proper performance tires in the end.

Of course those Pirelli PZeros ain't cheap either, but even the 285 rears on the Boss light up pretty easily with too much throttle input.

275's standard on the GT, 295's or 305's with PP. That'd be a good start. Plenty of tires from various companies in those sizes that are worth a damn. I'm not expecting an Extreme Summer Tire but something like the Michelin PSS would be a good start... Heck, I'd even settle for the Goodyear Eagle F1 Super Car:G2's.

One thing is certain, the reason the previous generation Mustangs didn't fair as well to their Camaro counter parts in testing was due to tires... the GT500 was down 40mm tire up front and 20mm tire out back to the ZL1 and the mid corner grip differences on various tracks showed that deficiency as a rather large one. Might as well step up your game to even the playing field. Sure, I'd still end up swapping out to Extreme Summer tires for autocross/track day duty, but at least my DD tires wouldn't be awful. The P-Zeroes have been complete zeroes since they shod the S197 chassis in 2005 with the Nero all seasons.

What people don't realize is that the added brake kits are going to do fuck all for braking distances on these new Mustangs. Throw the new GT's PP wheels/tires on the base GT and I'm willing to bet the 14" Brembos stop within a foot of the 15" Brembos do. The problem isn't brake torque, it's tire grip. Hell, my stock 2009 Mustang GT brakes (rotors, pads, fluids, calipers and all) can lock up even the stickiest and widest of autocross tires with relative ease and there isn't exactly anything stickier out there. It only gives up to the Brembo cars in thermal management and pad life and maybe a little bit of feel.

 

[Grimace427]

275's standard on the GT, 295's or 305's with PP. That'd be a good start. Plenty of tires from various companies in those sizes that are worth a damn. I'm not expecting an Extreme Summer Tire but something like the Michelin PSS would be a good start... Heck, I'd even settle for the Goodyear Eagle F1 Super Car:G2's.

One thing is certain, the reason the previous generation Mustangs didn't fair as well to their Camaro counter parts in testing was due to tires... the GT500 was down 40mm tire up front and 20mm tire out back to the ZL1 and the mid corner grip differences on various tracks showed that deficiency as a rather large one. Might as well step up your game to even the playing field. Sure, I'd still end up swapping out to Extreme Summer tires for autocross/track day duty, but at least my DD tires wouldn't be awful. The P-Zeroes have been complete zeroes since they shod the S197 chassis in 2005 with the Nero all seasons.

What people don't realize is that the added brake kits are going to do fuck all for braking distances on these new Mustangs. Throw the new GT's PP wheels/tires on the base GT and I'm willing to bet the 14" Brembos stop within a foot of the 15" Brembos do. The problem isn't brake torque, it's tire grip. Hell, my stock 2009 Mustang GT brakes (rotors, pads, fluids, calipers and all) can lock up even the stickiest and widest of autocross tires with relative ease and there isn't exactly anything stickier out there. It only gives up to the Brembo cars in thermal management and pad life and maybe a little bit of feel.

Didn't we see a camo mule sporting 295/35/19 PSS front tires?(had carbon ceramic brakes and some sweet wheels as well). I think Ford is aware of serious tire options, we still have almost a year to get the gritty details.

 

[m4a1mustang]

I agree that Ford's tire sizing has been frustrating. I would say 255/275 should be standard on a GT. PP cars should be equipped with 275/295-305 Pilot Super Sports.

 

[m4a1mustang]

Didn't we see a camo mule sporting 295/35/19 PSS front tires?(had carbon ceramic brakes and some sweet wheels as well). I think Ford is aware of serious tire options, we still have almost a year to get the gritty details.

I believe that was the SVT car. GT350 or whatever they want to call it.

 

[Whiskey11]

Didn't we see a camo mule sporting 295/35/19 PSS front tires?(had carbon ceramic brakes and some sweet wheels as well). I think Ford is aware of serious tire options, we still have almost a year to get the gritty details.

We did, but that car most likely isn't a GT. Sure I can add those later on my own but it would help the car out in the magazines where people who don't want to spend money on better tires after purchasing a car make their decisions on subjective lap times and driver impressions.

When Randy Pobst talked about "not very confident under braking" look at how far that ripple effected people's decisions about the car! Every serious track day guy knows that stock brake pads are going to be a compromise but it didn't stop people from choosing a different platform. Same with the "The GT500 is a straight line car, the ZL1 is a corner carving car, therefore the ZL1 is the better track day car" when the reality is the GT500's cornering speed was axed by being down so much tire to the ZL1.

I suppose in a lot of respects I want it specifically for the magazine tests, because I want the car to be successful but I also recognize that it has other performance benefits that people use every day. Ever had to making an emergency stop because some A-Hole jumped out in front of you or jumped on his brakes to avoid hitting bambi? Better tires helps there more than bigger brakes do. The issue is that wider tires doesn't sell cars nearly as well as the perceived brake size increase does. That's the world we live in.

 

[Taneras]

Anyone know if they're keeping the same bolt pattern? I have some rims I like on my current 13 and kept the stock rims and tires. If I can reuse these babies I'd like too If not I might throw them in with my car to make it sell easier.

 

[Tony Alonso]

When Randy Pobst talked about "not very confident under braking" look at how far that ripple effected people's decisions about the car!

Not sure what you mean by that...are you saying that it affected sales volumes?

I suppose in a lot of respects I want it specifically for the magazine tests, because I want the car to be successful but I also recognize that it has other performance benefits that people use every day. Ever had to making an emergency stop because some A-Hole jumped out in front of you or jumped on his brakes to avoid hitting bambi? Better tires helps there more than bigger brakes do. The issue is that wider tires doesn't sell cars nearly as well as the perceived brake size increase does. That's the world we live in.

Width is one aspect but compound is another. For street driving in lower temperature, as I am sure you well know, forget the summer compounds in fall and winter.

I'd actually argue that to the performance-minded, both bigger brakes AND wider tires do sell the cars. I suppose it depends on an individual's definition of wide and what power levels to which the tires are matched.

I've got 285 wide summer tires on my supercharged '01 Bullitt with about 430hp and can break traction fairly easily if I stomp on the pedal. I think 285s are wide, especially on that car.

 

[Whiskey11]

Not sure what you mean by that...are you saying that it affected sales volumes?

Yes, yes I am saying it affected people's decisions in buying the new GT500.

Width is one aspect but compound is another. For street driving in lower temperature, as I am sure you well know, forget the summer compounds in fall and winter.

I'd actually argue that to the performance-minded, both bigger brakes AND wider tires do sell the cars. I suppose it depends on an individual's definition of wide and what power levels to which the tires are matched.

I've got 285 wide summer tires on my supercharged '01 Bullitt with about 430hp and can break traction fairly easily if I stomp on the pedal. I think 285s are wide, especially on that car.

I'm well aware that width and compound play a huge roll in how a car performs. A large portion of Mustang owners garage keep their cars anyway during the late fall through winter and into early spring. For the rest of us who drive year round, if you are too stupid to not have winter tires or something for the winter then you probably deserve to crash into the ditch... ok that's harsh... still the average buyer does not factor in the tires the car comes with like they do something silly like brakes which is backwards... if you want better stopping distances you need better tires, not better brakes. There is PLENTY of brake torque coming out of far smaller brakes with far weaker pads than the Brembo packages and yet we are still getting 255's for tires BUT WE GET 15" ROTORS AND 6 Pot Brembos YAY!

Prior to me getting into autocross I never thought much of the stock tires and they definitely were not a factor in the decision making process but the brakes were... once I did I started to realize how shitty the tires are that we are getting from Ford and I mean more than just in compounding but in how the tires are designed. Our all seasons barely are capable of being used in anything but a light dusting or moderate rain. They have absolutely no grip in the dry either. I wanted to avoid the brake feel issues I had with my 2006 V6 with Pony Package which felt like ass during braking.

 

[Tony Alonso]

Yes, yes I am saying it affected people's decisions in buying the new GT500.

Is this anecdotal or do you have an information source from which you derived this?

I'm well aware that width and compound play a huge roll in how a car performs. A large portion of Mustang owners garage keep their cars anyway during the late fall through winter and into early spring. For the rest of us who drive year round, if you are too stupid to not have winter tires or something for the winter then you probably deserve to crash into the ditch... ok that's harsh...

On the C7 forums, there are a number of people lamenting (complaining) that they cannot drive their Corvettes year-round in colder weather regarding the tires. Some of the folks were aware they would need something, and others were surprised when they started slip sliding around as the temperature dropped in the last month or so.

still the average buyer does not factor in the tires the car comes with like they do something silly like brakes which is backwards... if you want better stopping distances you need better tires, not better brakes.

Yep, agree - many people are looking at the aesthetics of that change, not the system of brakes, tires, and suspension which have to work together to produce improved handling. And yes, I am definitely well aware you stop faster with better grip, not just having better clamping force.

There is PLENTY of brake torque coming out of far smaller brakes with far weaker pads than the Brembo packages and yet we are still getting 255's for tires BUT WE GET 15" ROTORS AND 6 Pot Brembos YAY!

I would assume the engineers have their reasons for this, beyond just purely cosmetics. I also assume the engineering time they put into making those choices work for the GT Performance Pack are to optimize this. I've had the opportunity to get rides from some of the Ford ride and handling engineers on the Ford test track in Dearborn, MI, and these folks are excellent drivers.

Prior to me getting into autocross I never thought much of the stock tires and they definitely were not a factor in the decision making process but the brakes were... once I did I started to realize how shitty the tires are that we are getting from Ford and I mean more than just in compounding but in how the tires are designed. Our all seasons barely are capable of being used in anything but a light dusting or moderate rain. They have absolutely no grip in the dry either. I wanted to avoid the brake feel issues I had with my 2006 V6 with Pony Package which felt like ass during braking.

This is a street car vs track car situation and definitely influenced by how you drive on the street. I've autocrossed in the last generation Mustang on street and race tires, both the same size. There was a noticeable difference with the compound change.

In "spirited" (read - not at the limit of adhesion) driving, the Pirellis work fine, in my opinion. I drive the car year round, and on light snow and slush. In the warmer weather, wet and dry, if I am taking a corner more quickly than say the recommended speed, the tires are OK for what they are. In autocross, it is another story, of course. And autocross demands quick steering, great braking, and being able to put the power down without the limitations of the live axle motions. That is why I think the new IRS, even in with the stock summer tires, will likely be a positive experience.

I do indeed understand where you are coming from on the tires. I believe that within all of the constraints that this car has to operate, the choices that were made reflect the realities of the marketplace. I've heard Mustang engineers say they know about what the hardcore track junkies would love but that they have to consider a multitude of factors when selecting the tires.

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