Livernois or Cobb Tune?

[Livernois Motorsports]

EcoBoosts DO NOT operate of recognize Air/Fuel Ratio. That might as well be an encrypted language that the ECM cannot read.

Anyone taking the native values and changing them into something else gives a chance for things to be miscalculated. This is the biggest issues we see with data logging. If someone looks at AFR on a logger, that value is already calculated. But the issue is what conversion are they using? 14.64? 14.08? something else? Now, what about what is in your tank. If they are assuming e10, and you have something more like e6, that instantly makes the applied conversion incorrect. Then, what if they aren't grabbing the right data point from the ECM to log it? What if they are grabbing one with an offset already added in? or a delay? or a commanded vs actual average?

You can see where one simple item like "afr" is all of a sudden riddled with chances of incorrect data being displayed. Now, we haven't even started talking about boost, or any other myriad of items that could be logged. You see, the Data points that almost all dataloggers use are SAE. Now, SAE standards are nice, BUT they are not designed for someone to do calibration from. They are for repair shops to help diagnose issues with vehicles. So, the level of precision, and refresh rate is not what's needed to do proper calibration development. If you are using a data point with a 200ms refresh rate, but the actual value in the ECM refreshes every 8ms, then the ECM is updating 50x more frequently then what you are watching. Again, you start to see where the issues happen and it's easier to understand why we do not treat the EcoBoost like any other engine before it.

Can someone get lucky and eventually end up with a tune that works by looking at the wrong data? Absolutely. Can they repeat those results over and over again without starting from scratch each time? Usually not. And it all stems from having the right knowledge, and data in the first place.

BTW, SHE has made about 25 passes and they are all 11.7-11.8 ;-)

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[04SloSnake]

Sweet A customer car in the 11's.

I don't think Adam has a problem with repeating results. With the number of customer cars he has in the 11's, it sounds like you should be asking his advice. You guys should stick with your $2,000 TBE, they seem to be incredibly popular on this forum...

 

[Tune+]

If you have the ability to log the correct parameters it is really easy to translate raw data into converted data. I do it everyday. I can see how it can be an issue though.

:cheers:

 

[higdominator]

Love my Cobb AP, best interface I have ever used. I keep it in the car and use it as a tool and reference every time I drive.

My Tune+ tune drives like stock, seemless operation with no bucking, hiccups, etc. when you press the go pedal it's game on, incredible power delivery.

With the additional transmission tune I'm running an incredibly efficient setup. My trap speed and ET indicate a well oiled machine- I don't see that from any other tuners (especially in bulk) here or on the other outlets.

I also like being able to send a log of my runs for Adam to take a look, stay safe, and try to make more power.

 

[iEcobeast]

Wow! Thank You everyone for their comments and opinions. It seems like both company are fairly appreciated and are keeping their customers happy. I have quite a bit of thinking before I make the ultimate decision in choosing which tuner I want to go with.

 

[EcoSwag1990]

A lot of good options. Competition just forces them to make it better for us customers

 

[EcoSwag1990]

Ppl need to understand the fact that Livernois designs it's tunes to be SAFE while greatly improving performance. The first thing they do is obtain the specific strategy code that your car is running and they tune all of the parameters for that strategy to add power safely based on the mods that you have. They don't need to datalog because they aren't pushing the car to the limits of being safe and they know what they are doing based on experience and the fact that they produce basically every single bolt on that u could put on the car. The tune can account for changes in elevation and octane. It isn't literally set up so you have to go to the exact same gas station to get your 93 because that's what u data logged for. As others have said the lms tune barely even raises boost while others are running 22+psi and customers still run similar times

 

[Ron@cp-e]

Ppl need to understand the fact that Livernois designs it's tunes to be SAFE while greatly improving performance. The first thing they do is obtain the specific strategy code that your car is running and they tune all of the parameters for that strategy to add power safely based on the mods that you have. They don't need to datalog because they aren't pushing the car to the limits of being safe and they know what they are doing based on experience and the fact that they produce basically every single bolt on that u could put on the car. The tune can account for changes in elevation and octane. It isn't literally set up so you have to go to the exact same gas station to get your 93 because that's what u data logged for. As others have said the lms tune barely even raises boost while others are running 22+psi and customers still run similar times

are you trying to be serious and accurate here?
yikes

 

[ECM90]

I never said I was trying to calm down the argument. This is a forum, we're adults, we can debate. This particular thread is comparing the two tunes and with that, these discussion need to be brought to light for people to make decisions on what they want to go with.

I'm just pointing out what he said. You can break down any data and say it's not going to be 100% perfect, that's the nature of gathering data in any practical application. Even on a dyno, there are things you could stretch and say hey it's not perfect data captured on a dyno. Does that mean we should just abandoned tuning cars on a dyno? No. It's the best you have to work with. It's absurd to say no data is better than some.

At the end of the day Livernois "custom tunes" are just glorified off the shelf map tunes. Because that's what they are, you can't call then anything else if you're not taking into account how the tune is reacting on the specific car it is going on. Adam's tune IS a custom tune because it is tailored to your specific application.

 

[EcoSwag1990]

I'm not saying that they aren't off the shelf in nature. That's kind of the point. Off the shelf tunes have to be designed to run well without directly reading the data off of every car

COBB does the exact same thing with their tunes but I don't see anyone attacking them for not datalogging/dynoing everyone's car

 

[04SloSnake]

I'm not saying that they aren't off the shelf in nature. That's kind of the point. Off the shelf tunes have to be designed to run well without directly reading the data off of every car

COBB does the exact same thing with their tunes but I don't see anyone attacking them for not datalogging/dynoing everyone's car

You also don't see anyone rushing to get COBBs OTS tune. They have Pro-Tuners for a reason.

 

[EcoSwag1990]

You also don't see anyone rushing to get COBBs OTS tune. They have Pro-Tuners for a reason.

Which costs more. LMS does revisions and trans tuning for the flat $600

 

[ECM90]

Cobb is conservative on the OTS because they can't see exactly what's going on with your car. You can't say Livernois is conservative when they are trying to match tunes that other tuners only feel comfortable with if they can datalog to see how it's reacting.

If we we're talking about OTS vs tune+ then yes I would say Adam can safely tune more aggressive since he can see what's going on. Cobb's have the preload maps and have an awesome device that has the capability to be tuned by tuners, that why they designed the access port the way the did. They aren't in the market to individually remote tune every single access port they sell, they left that up to the buyer to make informed decision and pick a tuner whether it be on the dyno or have someone remotely tune it like Adam from tune+. They have the ability to data log for a reason.

We're talking about two tuners here, one datalogs and the other doesn't. All I'm saying is it's crazy a Livernois is discrediting the power the access-port has to datalog.

If you want your tuner to be able to see what your car is doing with their tune remotely go with accessport, if you want them to be blind go with Livernois.

I'm sure Livernois has awesome off the shelf maps. But it's a fact, they do not have any information about how it is acting on YOUR SPECIFIC car. Period. We can sit here all day and argue that the datalog doesn't do this and doesn't do that. At the end of the day it gives the tuner the ability to remotely see what's going on with your engine and how it is behaving with the tune. I don't even know why it's a debate.

 

[EcoSwag1990]

Who are u debating with? Because it looks more like just taking shots at livernois.

I never took one shot at tune+ or the accessport. I'm simply saying LMS does not necessarily need logging to provide equally good if not better tuning. They have been tuning these engines for years and have a very close relationship with Ford and it is not inconceivable that they know some things others do not. Look at all the threads about their V7 tuning, ppl love it for a reason

I just have a problem with ppl who have never had their tuning shots at them simply because they ride another tuners nuts

 

[ECM90]

I'm not taking shots at anyone. I'm stating facts about dataloging. Livernois plain as day discredited dataloging and made it sound useless. I'm debating that statement. I'm sure Livernois does awesome tunes like I said, but they can't datalog, and their making it seem this it's a useless feature. This thread is talking about the two and I'm just saying that I do not agree with what they said, along with many other people and professional tuners who would like to see what the engine is doing with their tune.

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