Lethal Performance Bread & Butter II Package Feedback

[ARDrummond25]

I'm curious if anyone with a 2015-18 GT350 has installed the @LethalPerformance / @BMR Suspension suspension package called Bread & Butter II and, if so, how they've observed it helping (or not) on the track.

The collective wisdom of this forum and TMO have talked me out of doing more flashy suspension mods like coilovers and focusing on "the driver mod" and perhaps some camber plates to improve the basic geometry of my setup and save some tire wear. But something fundamental like this still appeals to me so hope to hear some feedback.

Link to kit: https://www.lethalperformance.com/b...g-bread-and-butter-ii-the-sequel-package.html

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[Brian@BMVK]

I'd start with BMR CB005 only. The next thing to consider after that is a replacement of the rear LCA bushing.

 

[ARDrummond25]

I'd start with BMR CB005 only. The next thing to consider after that is a replacement of the rear LCA bushing.

Please elaborate as to why you suggest that If you don’t mind.

im not doing the work myself so doing it piecemeal would drive up my install cost. Is there an efficient way to break up the job into smaller pieces without repeatedly removing the same oarts

 

[Brian@BMVK]

Please elaborate as to why you suggest that If you don’t mind.

im not doing the work myself so doing it piecemeal would drive up my install cost. Is there an efficient way to break up the job into smaller pieces without repeatedly removing the same oarts

The CB005 eliminates 90% of the subframe movement and does so while positively locating the subframe.

There are a few threads on the first page here about the lower control arm bushing and its replacement options.

 

[fatbillybob]

I race a 2019 GT PP1 A10. It isn't a GT350 but developed from a new stock streetcar. I've raced at the highest amateur level for a decade and at lower levels before that. So that's my backround.

When a car starts off as cr@p all the work the driver does is for naught. So you have to have decent starting point. I hear the GT350 is good out of the box. I do not know but the GT is a real POS that is becoming a decent racecar. From stock there was a huge improvement going from PP1 19" street tires/wheels to 18" Dot-R tires/wheels. This provided more grip and lowered the car 1.5" and the smaller overall diameter gave better acceleration. The square set-up took some understeer out of the car built in by Ford.

The next big change came with coilovers. Well damped shocks, additional rideheight lowering now 3.75" when stock was 6.5", heavy springs front 600lb and rear 750lbs on coil not divorced spring. Nose dive was gone and roll in cornering was gone with stock PP1 bars but front debonded. Coils means you can now corner balance the car too and even weight jack for track specific instances. I was skeptical of spring rates way out there from any other manufacturer's rates but dang these springs work! I might even go their heavier spring rates. I might be bottoming these out or close to it.

Finally, I adding in basically the kit you describe locking out the diff, subframe, vertical links, adjustable end links, yada yada but honestly I can' feel any difference and I have not done before and after testing to see if my laptimes are reduced from all these little changes. I think I tend to just drive around issues sort of like what you do when tires start to fall off in a race. Honestly, can anyone really feel the effects of spherical vertical links? Maybe I have an insensitive Butt-o-meter. All these little things like RLCA are supposed to add up and I hope they knock off time. I do not know what the time value of these little mods are but they sure add up to a lot of money to try and fix Ford's dumb suspension design. The 1st 2 mentioned above were like wheels and tires wow different car. The coils... wow different car again. Then all the rest humm....was it really worth it? Well it is supposed to be and should on paper.

 

[ARDrummond25]

I race a 2019 GT PP1 A10. It isn't a GT350 but developed from a new stock streetcar. I've raced at the highest amateur level for a decade and at lower levels before that. So that's my backround.

When a car starts off as cr@p all the work the driver does is for naught. So you have to have decent starting point. I hear the GT350 is good out of the box. I do not know but the GT is a real POS that is becoming a decent racecar. From stock there was a huge improvement going from PP1 19" street tires/wheels to 18" Dot-R tires/wheels. This provided more grip and lowered the car 1.5" and the smaller overall diameter gave better acceleration. The square set-up took some understeer out of the car built in by Ford.

The next big change came with coilovers. Well damped shocks, additional rideheight lowering now 3.75" when stock was 6.5", heavy springs front 600lb and rear 750lbs on coil not divorced spring. Nose dive was gone and roll in cornering was gone with stock PP1 bars but front debonded. Coils means you can now corner balance the car too and even weight jack for track specific instances. I was skeptical of spring rates way out there from any other manufacturer's rates but dang these springs work! I might even go their heavier spring rates. I might be bottoming these out or close to it.

Finally, I adding in basically the kit you describe locking out the diff, subframe, vertical links, adjustable end links, yada yada but honestly I can' feel any difference and I have not done before and after testing to see if my laptimes are reduced from all these little changes. I think I tend to just drive around issues sort of like what you do when tires start to fall off in a race. Honestly, can anyone really feel the effects of spherical vertical links? Maybe I have an insensitive Butt-o-meter. All these little things like RLCA are supposed to add up and I hope they knock off time. I do not know what the time value of these little mods are but they sure add up to a lot of money to try and fix Ford's dumb suspension design. The 1st 2 mentioned above were like wheels and tires wow different car. The coils... wow different car again. Then all the rest humm....was it really worth it? Well it is supposed to be and should on paper.

from all I can tell, yes the GT350 is a good platform. Keeps up admirably with the 4x priced Porsche GT3 RS cars right from the factory.

I already did the wheels/tires part. Went from the OEM boat anchors to the 6GR Ten in R-Spec sizes (11.5 rear, 11 fronts) wrapped in Cup 2. That cut about 7.5lbs per corner compared to what the factory provided.

believe me I really want to do coil overs, eyeing the Ohlins Road and Track option. But I’m convinced that I should get more seat time on track before I bother. I will do the Vorshlag camber plates in the meantime so my overpriced tires make a little more contact and last a little longer in the meantime.

Candidly, due to my novice experience level, I have not found the GT350 to understeer the way all S550s do, but I suspect that’s simply because I’m not braking late enough to overcome what the Cup 2s can provide. At my pace (about 11 seconds a lap slower than a pro lap) the car feels perfectly balanced at turn in and mid corner and even a little tail happy at track out.

all that said, I do find the car a bit soft in terms of body roll and I ALWAYS slam the skid plate on the track coming down the corkscrew at Laguna. So I wouldn’t mind firming things up all around.

 

[Logan@Lethal]

@ARDrummond25 this kit was built on my car with BMR and our input. The intent of the kit was the most reduction of wheel hop and spin without any (or EXTREMELY little) addition of NVH.

I would recommend this kit to near anyone. We intentionally left out the differential bushings as they are a large contribution to NVH.

With your racing intent, I would recommend the sway bars and potential coilovers or shocks/struts of your choosing. We can run through those options with you if you'd like.

In short, this kit will completely change the feel of the car without being intrusive.

 

[ARDrummond25]

@ARDrummond25 this kit was built on my car with BMR and our input. The intent of the kit was the most reduction of wheel hop and spin without any (or EXTREMELY little) addition of NVH.

I would recommend this kit to near anyone. We intentionally left out the differential bushings as they are a large contribution to NVH.

With your racing intent, I would recommend the sway bars and potential coilovers or shocks/struts of your choosing. We can run through those options with you if you'd like.

In short, this kit will completely change the feel of the car without being intrusive.

I asked this in another thread, but what I'm wondering is if I just did the 762 and 005 kits, do I still need to keep my steeda jacking rails in place (so I can offset the weight add) or would I be better off keeping them on?

 

[Logan@Lethal]

I asked this in another thread, but what I'm wondering is if I just did the 762 and 005 kits, do I still need to keep my steeda jacking rails in place (so I can offset the weight add) or would I be better off keeping them on?

Unsure if it'd fit with the CB762.. but I would think it would.

You do not HAVE to use them, though.

 

[ARDrummond25]

Unsure if it'd fit with the CB762.. but I would think it would.

You do not HAVE to use them, though.

well okay I worded that poorly. No one HAS to use jacking rails. What I really meant to ask was would they (the jacking rails) serve any practical purpose given I can use CB005 as rear jack points? Or would I lose something I'd likely miss by removing the rails?

 

[Logan@Lethal]

well okay I worded that poorly. No one HAS to use jacking rails. What I really meant to ask was would they (the jacking rails) serve any practical purpose given I can use CB005 as rear jack points? Or would I lose something I'd likely miss by removing the rails?

Well, I personally enjoy having the rails on my car. They make it mindless to jack the car up.. even moreso than normal. You can remove them, though, and yes, reuse that jack point.

 

[Ewheels]

well okay I worded that poorly. No one HAS to use jacking rails. What I really meant to ask was would they (the jacking rails) serve any practical purpose given I can use CB005 as rear jack points? Or would I lose something I'd likely miss by removing the rails?

I like the jacking rails cause you can lift the whole side of the car up in the center of the jacking rail rather than jacking up each corner separately. Fast maintenance is such a blessing at the track.

 

[NightmareMoon]

As fatbillybob mentions, the parts in that kit should be the last parts you pursue, its literally (ok not literally literally) the kitchen sink for wheel hop, which IMHO is really only a big problem for drag launches out of a hole.

Now, I might cherry pick one or two of those parts (rear lower control arm and toe bearings) to keep the rear wheels pointed in the right direction and fix issues with toe change, but unless you're trying to solve for wheel hop problems you don't really need most of that kit. Put the savings towards some good track day safety gear instead, or spend it on a couple of track days, or save it up towards a nice set of dampers.

 

[Brian@BMVK]

As fatbillybob mentions, the parts in that kit should be the last parts you pursue, its literally (ok not literally literally) the kitchen sink for wheel hop, which IMHO is really only a big problem for drag launches out of a hole.

Now, I might cherry pick one or two of those parts (rear lower control arm and toe bearings) to keep the rear wheels pointed in the right direction and fix issues with toe change, but unless you're trying to solve for wheel hop problems you don't really need most of that kit. Put the savings towards some good track day safety gear instead, or spend it on a couple of track days, or save it up towards a nice set of dampers.

I'd add some subframe stability/control as well, as it moves around a lot even just coming on/off the throttle.

 

[ARDrummond25]

As fatbillybob mentions, the parts in that kit should be the last parts you pursue, its literally (ok not literally literally) the kitchen sink for wheel hop, which IMHO is really only a big problem for drag launches out of a hole.

Now, I might cherry pick one or two of those parts (rear lower control arm and toe bearings) to keep the rear wheels pointed in the right direction and fix issues with toe change, but unless you're trying to solve for wheel hop problems you don't really need most of that kit. Put the savings towards some good track day safety gear instead, or spend it on a couple of track days, or save it up towards a nice set of dampers.

so you’re saying I SHOULD buy those $200 Sparco gloves I was eyeballing...?

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