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Just How Important Is the Traction Control?

Norm Peterson

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Yes, I know the theory, but I just can't see it. I guess this theory was coined by people whose throttle pedal has only two possible positions - off and flat out.
This ^^^.

We need to remember that the car hobby is mostly populated by those who don't think much past things like power, exhaust sound, and wide-open-throttle acceleration. I also think we can throw some blame at all those tunes that exaggerate initial throttle response and impress the driver into thinking his car has more power than it actually does. Those are a couple of the things that make it easy for less experienced drivers to get out past what their skill set can cope with.


What I'm actually seeing is that, as long as you're smooth with the throttle, the car is perfectly fine under all normal driving conditions, that it takes a conscious action to make it lose grip, and that when it does lose grip, it does it in a progressive and easily controllable way.
"Conscious" is a good word here. As in conscious awareness of tire grip and/or slip angles as well as being consciously smooth with your throttle modulation. Consciously smooth with all of your control inputs, actually.


Norm
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kz

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And I'm just not seeing that. All I can see is that:
1. You need to do a conscious effort to unsettle the rear end. Not only does it ordinarily not want to get in front, but quite the contrary, it takes a definite, intentional action to make it do that.
2. Once the rear end loses grip, regaining it with the ESC on is a piece of cake.
3. If the rear end slides while the ESC is off, it's still quite easy to control as long as you don't panic and know what to do. It will only spin if you mess something up.

So why does the Mustang have such a scary reputation? There's nothing scary about it all. It's incredibly docile. I feel more confident now in the Mustang than I have ever felt in any other car.
"I told you so"

Glad you got the experience to figure it out yourself. This car is incredibly easy to drive and set up in a safe manner (of course it is, it is sold in tens of thousands). But if you do stupid things, you end up with stupid results. All the things you've read about how dangerous this car is are excuses.
 

K4fxd

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I played in a parking lot and could not get the car to spin. 70 Mph and turn the wheel hard left while flooring the throttle resulted in a controlled turn. The ABS was going nuts, but kept me from spinning. All nannies on.

Following a garbage truck on a busy two lane I found a large enough gap I figured I could pass. I turned into the passing lane and floored the car, about the time I got to the front of the truck the car went sideways, it was all I could do to keep it under control. If it were not for my dirt track racing experience I believe I would have been in the trees. All nannies on.

DO NOT TRUST the nannies.
 

Rick#7

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I played in a parking lot and could not get the car to spin. 70 Mph and turn the wheel hard left while flooring the throttle resulted in a controlled turn. The ABS was going nuts, but kept me from spinning. All nannies on.

Following a garbage truck on a busy two lane I found a large enough gap I figured I could pass. I turned into the passing lane and floored the car, about the time I got to the front of the truck the car went sideways, it was all I could do to keep it under control. If it were not for my dirt track racing experience I believe I would have been in the trees. All nannies on.

DO NOT TRUST the nannies.
Very similar experience, I was running late for work 1 day, and stuck behind a lifted 4x4 doing 10 mph down the middle of the road. I had a few attempts to spin the tires in the past just playing around, but the nannies always kept the tires planted, so I wasn't too concerned about losing traction in the following situation. In a moment of frustration and poor judgement, I gave it some gas (not even to the floor) and pulled to left to go around the road hog. The issue was that my left tires were in the grass shoulder in order to get far enough over to go around. About the time I was getting ahead of the guy I felt the rear coming loose. My 1st thought was simply to hit the brakes, but then panic set in and I didn't want to stop dead in front of a big pickup coming at me, so I eased back on the throttle but by this time I was already pointed sideways and ended up trenching someone's front yard and scratching my trunk lid on low hanging branches before getting back on the road.

When I finally had a minute to catch my breath, my 1st thought was "traction control? What traction control?!!" It was in that moment I realized how unpredictable the nannies can be, and the stories of losing control in these cars are probably accurate.

The moral of the story, poor judgement and panic make for scary situations, and relying on the nannies to save your butt if things get tricky is not a good plan.
 

1emglenn

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I find my car nose kicks to the right every time I do a very aggressive 1-2, usually giving someone a first time ride. If you have ever raced off-road, driven in the mud at high speeds, the muscle memory should be there, and with all the features the car recovers well.

I've always felt something as simple as a fast go-cart on a dirt track is great training for real-world driving. When the nose goes one way, you shouldn't even have to think about what to do.
As a 16 year old kid, we had some pretty good sized parking lots around our valley. When we'd get a good rainstorm, I'd go out late at night to one those lots. What with the oil drips from parked cars and the rain, it was a great skid pad. Course this was before they decided they needed all those concrete tire stops. Lot was wide open and it was a blast. Learned a lot about that point when the car decides to break free. You get the feel of it and learn how to control it. Think that before they give someone a license they could all use a little time on a skid pad.
 

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gadgtfreek

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Exactly.
 

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So why does the Mustang have such a scary reputation? There's nothing scary about it all. It's incredibly docile. I feel more confident now in the Mustang than I have ever felt in any other car.
The Mustang is a very well-engineered car and I think you are somewhat right using the word docile, but also somewhat wrong. Any Mustang built currently has plenty enough power to get anyone in trouble.

Consistent grip whether low or high, is relatively easy for both you and the car's nannies to handle. It's when you go from high grip to low grip when you can really get into trouble quickly. Especially if you are traveling faster than 40-50 mph and are up in the engine's power band. And pavement irregularities can make the car get sideways so fast that the nannies can't react in time.

I think the Mustang has a reputation because the people that drive Mustangs tend to push the limits of the car and themselves. If you do that often enough - you will learn and improve - but you also have a real chance of making a mistake and pushing things a little too far and losing control of the car.
 

jrsimon27

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I have done 1/4miles times using a dragy device sports plus mode vrs track mode you gain 0.2sec -0.3sec in the 1/4mile but if you are on street tires car and on the street car will loose control and you neee to back off in track mode. In sports plus its a more control beast but will be slower.
Better to be slower then sorry.

I have never tested the car shutting down advance track will never do unless iam at a prep track and a really good tire as in a dragtire but never in a street tire.
 
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Vlad Soare

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Consistent grip whether low or high, is relatively easy for both you and the car's nannies to handle. It's when you go from high grip to low grip when you can really get into trouble quickly.
That's a very good point.
Actually, I think it's not so much about how sudden the loss of grip is, but rather about how unexpected it is.
On the track there was a patch of ice in a corner, immediately after a stretch of dry tarmac. Typical case of going from high grip to low grip in a blink of an eye. Every time one rear wheel touched that ice, the car would try to go sideways. I drove over it several times, with and without TC, with and without ESC, and never lost it. This is probably because I knew it was there and knew exactly what was going to happen. I was expecting it.
I think the key is being permanently aware of what might happen at any given moment. Whenever you accelerate briskly, expect the rear end to play up. Don't expect it to grip, only to be taken by surprise when it doesn't. Do it the other way around - expect it to slide, and be surprised if it doesn't.
 

Hack

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I have done 1/4miles times using a dragy device sports plus mode vrs track mode you gain 0.2sec -0.3sec in the 1/4mile but if you are on street tires car and on the street car will loose control and you neee to back off in track mode. In sports plus its a more control beast but will be slower.
Better to be slower then sorry.

I have never tested the car shutting down advance track will never do unless iam at a prep track and a really good tire as in a dragtire but never in a street tire.
One thing to keep in mind is that a little bit of moisture on VHT or a prepped drag strip surface is extremely slippery. One of the road courses I go to has a drag strip as one of the longer straights. I was in the middle of the 1/4 mile on one of the prepped areas during the first session of the morning when I hit a bit of moisture. At 100 mph roughly with my foot to the floor and the car went sideways so fast it was a cold sweat moment. I didn't have the nannies off. I might have been in sport mode, but everything was on. The rest of the day I stayed off the prepped surfaces. It was not slippery at all anywhere else on the road course (non-prepped areas). And it was a miniscule amount of water. There was no standing water anywhere. It hadn't been raining. It was probably just slight condensation from overnight cool temperatures.

I agree with what Vlad said - expect it to slide - at least when you are driving hard. Because on a road course typically a longer straight is the place where I am the most relaxed. And so the loss of traction freaked me out more than if I had been ready for it. I realize though that we are all human and so we can't go around 100% alert all the time. But we should be a little on edge when the gas pedal is pinned to the floor.
 

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Norm Peterson

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Even the nannies have their limits, and a split-mu condition (such as right side tires on pavement, left side tires on grass/sand) is likely one of the more severe tests that you could throw at them.


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Hi,

I know this question sounds like heresy, but please bear with me for a moment. I'm not trying to start yet another debate on the subject of good drivers vs. nannies. I'm all for nannies. I'm just trying to understand how they actually work.

The electronic stability system comprises two components:

1. Traction Control - this senses when a driven wheel loses grip. When that happens it cuts off power. You press the throttle and nothing happens. It will allow only as much torque to be sent to the wheels as the least gripping wheel can handle.
2. AdvanceTrac - this senses when the car's trajectory doesn't correspond to the steering input. When that happens it applies the brakes to various degrees to each individual wheel, to keep the car from spinning.

It's generally agreed that turning the traction control off on the street is bad, and that if you do that you'll eventually go backwards into a tree. Or worse, into a crowd. But will you really? Why would you? Isn't it the job of the AdvanceTrac to keep you on track? Turning off the traction control will merely allow one of the rear wheels to spin. But as long as that spin isn't actually causing the car to swerve you should be fine. And if it does cause it to swerve, then the AdvanceTrac will step in.
The car has a limited slip diff. Even if one wheel spins, the other will still receive a good amount of torque. It will still move. One rear wheel spinning doesn't necessarily mean that the car is out of control. And if it actually gets on the verge of getting out of control, then the AdvanceTrac will keep it straight.
So do we actually need the TC? OK, it's a nice thing to have, but is it actually essential? Is it really so dangerous to turn the TC off, as long as the AdvanceTrac is still up and running?

Thank you.
I previously wrote how as a kid I would use wet parking lots to practice on. But, your question brings to mind another incident that happened much later in the 80's. I was on an expressway with a speed limit of 50, but I was headed to work and a little late. I was probably going around 65. We'd had some rain but the pavement was mostly dry with just patches of moisture, not even puddles. I was headed straight when all of a sudden I felt the rear go. Didn't take my foot off the gas, just corrected with the steering. Everything seemed to be working fine the rear started back to straighten out but then instead of stopping continued swinging around the other way. Before I knew it I had pulled a 180. Dumped the clutch and started using the mirrors, driving backwards down the road. I was able to get her off the road without coming in contact with anything or anybody else. Sat there for awhile trying to figure out what had happened. The only thing I could think was that one of the wheels had lost traction do to some oil on one of those damp spots in the road. Today, with traction control the likelihood of this happening is greatly reduced. Maybe on the track you don't want T/C, but for every day driving it is a blessing.
 

GregP27

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Most of the stupid Mustang drivers videos I've seen are 100% driver's fault. A good many are leaving a car show and are not srtraight when they hit the throttle. Maybe they wonder afterward why a dragster gets straight before launching.

Also, once a car starts getting sideways, the indicated action is to countersteer a bit and reduce throttle. Most of the video morons countersteer way too much and leave their foot on the floor.

That's fine as long as you have done it in a parking lot / open pavement somewhere with no curbs or k-rails about but, if it's your first time doing it, a narrow road with curbs and other cars / people about is really pretty stupid. When it gets to court, the judge will confirm it was stupid.

If you live in a place like Portland, Oregon where it is frequently wet, Advance trac is a lifesaver and carsaver. I'd want it off, along with traction control, on a road course, though. There are too many times when a 4-wheel drift might be required to get around a corner that you entered a bit too fast to have the nannies sending you into a guardrail.

Traction control is great for normal street driving, but I'd turn it off at a dragstrip. Since I don't street race, it is no issue to me normally.
 

Dfeeds

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Traction control caused me to get stuck in the snow the other day. I was moving up a small incline with about 3 to 6" of snow. I was spinning but moving up, as expected. Traction control decided to do its thing and kill power and when that didn't solve the problem it then wouldn't let me rev passed 1200 rpms no matter what my throttle input was. I couldn't get through the snow and got stuck in place. I turned off TC, waited for the people behind me to drive around, let the car roll back a bit, and continued on without issue.

So there's an example of a limitation of traction control. That situation could have easily been an accident if the person behind me was riding close. It has its use but it's no replacement for driver skill.
 
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Vlad Soare

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I previously wrote how as a kid I would use wet parking lots to practice on. But, your question brings to mind another incident that happened much later in the 80's. I was on an expressway with a speed limit of 50, but I was headed to work and a little late. I was probably going around 65. We'd had some rain but the pavement was mostly dry with just patches of moisture, not even puddles. I was headed straight when all of a sudden I felt the rear go. Didn't take my foot off the gas, just corrected with the steering. Everything seemed to be working fine the rear started back to straighten out but then instead of stopping continued swinging around the other way. Before I knew it I had pulled a 180. Dumped the clutch and started using the mirrors, driving backwards down the road. I was able to get her off the road without coming in contact with anything or anybody else. Sat there for awhile trying to figure out what had happened. The only thing I could think was that one of the wheels had lost traction do to some oil on one of those damp spots in the road. Today, with traction control the likelihood of this happening is greatly reduced. Maybe on the track you don't want T/C, but for every day driving it is a blessing.
What you're describing looks like a job for the ESC, not the TC.
The TC merely cuts off the gas, which you should have done yourself anyway in that situation.
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