Just How Important Is the Traction Control?

[kz]

OK. Fair point. But that's just a vague, general statement. I'm interested more in the specifics, i.e. how exactly, and by how much, is the intervention limited in this particular case.
It seems to me that the role of the TC is to stop you from getting into the realm of the AdvanceTrac in the first place. A belt and braces approach. However, once you are in that realm, once you get to a point where you need help from the AdvanceTrac, that help will be the same regardless of whether the TC is on or off. Or won't it?

All of these systems have historically been added for everyone's safety and nothing else. People suck at driving (on average - and most of them thing they'yre great at it) especially when they end up in a situation when they about to lose control or already lost it.
Driving skill requires practice like everything else and knowing where car limits are and most of the people (that includes forum members here) simply do not.

Yes, advancetrac will help some with TC being off - which is what happens in a Track mode of this car. I've driven plenty with everything off and with Track mode on (which is TC off, Advancetrac on but in much limited capacity) at or beyond the limit.

Simplest way to describe it (without really knowing algorithms behind it) that TC looks for wheel spin, Advacetrack looks for a yaw rate of the car. It's longitudinal vs. lateral traction (simplyfing it).

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[kz]

So, how dangerous would it be to use it on the street? The AdvanceTrac is still active, so theoretically I should be fine. But will I?
Second, sometimes I might want to unsettle the rear end a bit, just a bit, for fun, when no one is around. But the TC won't let me do that. And if I turn it off, I still want the AdvanceTrac to be there and to keep me from crashing if I get it wrong. But will it be as effective without the TC? Will the AdvanceTrac still keep me from crashing if the TC is off? My guess is yes, it will, but I'm not 100% sure, and I was hoping that someone might confirm this.

Yes - you will be fine. People have this irrational fear of the Track mode (some actually use Wet/Snow mode for some reason) - in a dry conditions, without treating the throttle like on / off switch you will be absolutely fine. If you have never done anything stupid that resulted in TC/Advancetrac intervention, then you will be more than fine in a Track mode (which I use daily, I actually at times drive with TC/Advancetrac completely off because I forget to connect the plug under the hood back on).

 

[Norm Peterson]

I'll try to answer the question in the spirit in which it is asked. In the context of track driving, AT is going to help you get better times. This is regardless of driver skill (how scandalous!). This is because, no matter how good a driver you are, it's not physically possible to apply the brakes on individual wheels. AT can help you get around corners quicker than it would be possible without. Don't believe me? Look into any track-focused hypercar. Read about the systems they use to get the best lap times. They will all very proudly talk about their version of 4-wheel braking, regardless of what they call it. Conversely, if the car in question was built with creating a "pure driving machine", they will smugly declare how the vehicle eschews such systems. Then, they will use the driver experience to justify the slower lap times.

Yes and no. Whether it's going to result in improved performance over the unaided driver depends on the system's calibration, on things like OE tire and brake system properties and how much conservatism was designed into the ESC. On whether or not any relaxed calibrations are accessible that would perhaps not pass regulatory standards. Change tires to something grippier, or put track pads on, and I'm thinking that all bets are off because the system can't recognize those changes.

In the same context, TC is going to hold you back. It is not going to modulate the throttle as well as a skilled driver will. It is possible for a human to control throttle in an optimal way, as there is only one control for it. A little slip, and a little spin can result in the computer cutting throttle far harder than a driver would need to compensate. It can also lead to overcompensation as both the computer and driver let off on the throttle.

I think also that TC inserts some lag time as far as returning full throttle control to the driver is concerned. It at least takes finite time to open the throttle back to where it was when the TC decided to chop it.


Norm

 

[Gregs24]

In that case the stability control has failed. I'm sure our AdvanceTrac can fail sometimes, too. Shit happens.

It failed because there as insufficient grip for 700PS and the grip was lost too fast for any system to respond. It can't think ahead - it requires a loss of traction to detect slip and then react to it - no matter how quick this is it is always playing catch up. LSD is the same - only acts when the wheels are moving at different rates, and it is a 'limited' slip diff not a no slip diff.

So, how dangerous would it be to use it on the street? The AdvanceTrac is still active, so theoretically I should be fine. But will I?

Well the user manual says don't use track mode on the road so I think that provides the answer if you don't adjust your driving style to suit.

There is only so much all of the systems can do - if the grip is not there then you will crash. If you are not grip limited then they will do nothing, if grip is severely limited there will be little they can do (such as ice) - they only really work in moderate grip levels.

 

[Gregs24]

You won't know whether it was TC, ESC, or both unless some instrument panel display is capable of separating them and the driver is actively watching down there instead of out the windshield at where he wants the car to go.



Norm

I think it safe to say that for most drivers if ESC is active they will not be looking at which warning light is flashing. The colour of fear is brown.

 

[kz]

I'll try to answer the question in the spirit in which it is asked. In the context of track driving, AT is going to help you get better times. This is regardless of driver skill (how scandalous!). This is because, no matter how good a driver you are, it's not physically possible to apply the brakes on individual wheels. AT can help you get around corners quicker than it would be possible without. Don't believe me? Look into any track-focused hypercar. Read about the systems they use to get the best lap times. They will all very proudly talk about their version of 4-wheel braking, regardless of what they call it. Conversely, if the car in question was built with creating a "pure driving machine", they will smugly declare how the vehicle eschews such systems. Then, they will use the driver experience to justify the slower lap times.

Wrong. At least wrong in the Mustang. Advancetrac is terribly intrusive in this car (Track mode included) and will slow down any decent driver. Even in the rain, it sucks.

Motorsports systems are about 1000 times better than this - and yes - they work well, but they're for motorsports, are expensive and tuned for racing - look up Bosch Motorsports ABS system for example. Advancetrac in this car (and pretty much any large volume car) is for safety and nothing else.
Cars like GT3 RS - maybe, don't know enough about them. Mustang GT - yeah, hell no.

 

[fmc_smt]

Description and operation out of the service manual

Overview

The ABS and stability control systems are comprised of the following subsystems and features which assist the driver in maintaining control of the vehicle:

• Anti-lock braking
• EBD
• EPB control
• ESC
• Hill start assist
• Launch control
• Line lock
• Selectable drive mode
• Supplemental braking assist
• Supports adaptive cruise control
• Supports collision avoidance
• Traction control

Anti-lock braking helps maintain steering control by preventing the wheels from locking up during hard braking.

The EBD system helps maintain vehicle control by keeping a balanced braking condition between the front and rear wheels.

The ABS module is the ECU for the electric parking brake system. For information on the electric parking brake,

The ESC feature helps prevent skids or lateral slides by modulating brake fluid to the brake calipers and reducing engine torque.

The hill start assist system is designed to assist the driver during hill starts. Using the ABS, the hill start assist system holds the vehicle on an incline for a short time, allowing the driver to release the brake pedal and press the accelerator pedal without needing to use the parking brake.

The launch control feature works in conjunction with the ABS and the PCM to maximize traction from a standing start acceleration in a straight line. Launch control enables a unique "drag start" traction control calibration designed for high grip surfaces.

The line lock feature allows the rear wheels to spin freely while the front brakes are applied. This allows the rear tires to be "conditioned" to allow maximum traction. This feature is intended for use at race tracks only and should not be used on public roads.

The selectable drive mode system helps maintain vehicle traction by adapting the responses of the engine, transmission, EPAS and stability control system to the demands of the current selected driving mode; normal, snow-wet, sport and track.

The supplemental braking assist feature uses the hydraulic pump motor and HCU to provide additional braking assist in the event of severe vacuum loss at the brake booster or during a severe braking event.

The ABS supports the adaptive cruise control system by applying the brakes as necessary to maintain the distance gap set by the driver. For information on the adaptive cruise control system,

The ABS supports the collision avoidance system by monitoring information and precharging the brake system allowing the vehicle to stop in the shortest distance possible. For information on the collision avoidance system,

The traction control system helps prevent loss of traction by reducing drive wheel spin during acceleration.

Some noise from the system and pulsations in the brake pedal are normal conditions during most ABS and stability control events. Also, longer than normal brake pedal travel may be experienced immediately following an ABS or stability control activation.

 

[Norm Peterson]

I do intend to try it myself. Not on the street, obviously (at least not yet). There's a track close to my home, where you can also hire an instructor to teach you how to control your car at the limit. I want to go there next spring, or possibly even earlier if the weather allows. But until then I was hoping to hear from other, more experienced members, who might have already tried this themselves.

The reason why I started this thread is twofold.
First, if I wanted the acceleration response of the Track mode and/or the stiffess of the Track MagneRide mode, then I would have to use the Track mode itself, because there's no way to get them otherwise. But in Track mode the TC is inactive. So, how dangerous would it be to use it on the street? The AdvanceTrac is still active, so theoretically I should be fine. But will I?
Second, sometimes I might want to unsettle the rear end a bit, just a bit, for fun, when no one is around. But the TC won't let me do that. And if I turn it off, I still want the AdvanceTrac to be there and to keep me from crashing if I get it wrong. But will it be as effective without the TC? Will the AdvanceTrac still keep me from crashing if the TC is off? My guess is yes, it will, but I'm not 100% sure, and I was hoping that someone might confirm this.

I gave up trying to divide all the questions, so for the above description - which I assume specifically excludes whether or not your unassisted driving could match the lap times of an ESC system ideally calibrated for the track for your car the way it sits right now - I'm going to say it comes down to how smooth you are as a driver and on how well you are capable of modulating your throttle, brake, and steering inputs. How well you know the track also figures into it (same thing goes for knowing the specific street you might be driving on as well).

That applies to your street driving as well as your track driving, except that the discipline you use on the street is to use less of the car's ultimate capabilities rather than as much performance as possible without "going past the peak". If, say, you never exceed 0.5 g in a dry corner on the street, it won't matter if your car doesn't even have an ESC system. Trust me on this.


Norm

 

[WD Pro]

First, if I wanted the acceleration response of the Track mode and/or the stiffess of the Track MagneRide mode, then I would have to use the Track mode itself, because there's no way to get them otherwise.

Pretty sure I have seen graphs on here that showed throttle response in sport+ and track are the same.

On another note, I’ve been surprised how much wheel spin the system will let you have in a straight line / low speed in sport+

WD

 

[Deleted member 35786]

Hi,

I know this question sounds like heresy, but please bear with me for a moment. I'm not trying to start yet another debate on the subject of good drivers vs. nannies. I'm all for nannies. I'm just trying to understand how they actually work.

The electronic stability system comprises two components:

1. Traction Control - this senses when a driven wheel loses grip. When that happens it cuts off power. You press the throttle and nothing happens. It will allow only as much torque to be sent to the wheels as the least gripping wheel can handle.
2. AdvanceTrac - this senses when the car's trajectory doesn't correspond to the steering input. When that happens it applies the brakes to various degrees to each individual wheel, to keep the car from spinning.

It's generally agreed that turning the traction control off on the street is bad, and that if you do that you'll eventually go backwards into a tree. Or worse, into a crowd. But will you really? Why would you? Isn't it the job of the AdvanceTrac to keep you on track? Turning off the traction control will merely allow one of the rear wheels to spin. But as long as that spin isn't actually causing the car to swerve you should be fine. And if it does cause it to swerve, then the AdvanceTrac will step in.
The car has a limited slip diff. Even if one wheel spins, the other will still receive a good amount of torque. It will still move. One rear wheel spinning doesn't necessarily mean that the car is out of control. And if it actually gets on the verge of getting out of control, then the AdvanceTrac will keep it straight.
So do we actually need the TC? OK, it's a nice thing to have, but is it actually essential? Is it really so dangerous to turn the TC off, as long as the AdvanceTrac is still up and running?

Thank you.

Its an older video but the same concept with the newer Mustang.

 

[Norm Peterson]

First, if I wanted the acceleration response of the Track mode and/or the stiffess of the Track MagneRide mode, then I would have to use the Track mode itself, because there's no way to get them otherwise. But in Track mode the TC is inactive. So, how dangerous would it be to use it on the street? The AdvanceTrac is still active, so theoretically I should be fine. But will I?

I'm going to try to answer this one. I think that as long as you basically make your street driving a slower and less intense version of your track driving that you'd be fine. The problems are more likely to show up when somebody brings a drag-racing/street-racing mentality to their street driving. Think about your track driving - I imagine that you simply drive off down pit lane about like you would on the street and don't get into the hard driving part until after you're moving and perhaps settled in mentally.

Maybe put some of that "street = road course except a lot slower" thinking into your street driving . . .

Second, sometimes I might want to unsettle the rear end a bit, just a bit, for fun, when no one is around. But the TC won't let me do that. And if I turn it off, I still want the AdvanceTrac to be there and to keep me from crashing if I get it wrong. But will it be as effective without the TC? Will the AdvanceTrac still keep me from crashing if the TC is off? My guess is yes, it will, but I'm not 100% sure, and I was hoping that someone might confirm this.

Still not sure about this part. But I think you'd do well to lose the desire to 'unsettle the rear' if only to not let it work against the 'driving smoothly' part. This does not mean you have to take all of the 'enthusiastic driving' out of your driving, just smooth it all out and use that to reinforce all of your driving. Hell, I might never take curves or highway ramps at less than half a g in the dry if it wasn't for traffic in front of me going slower.


Norm

 

[Norm Peterson]

I think it safe to say that for most drivers if ESC is active they will not be looking at which warning light is flashing. The colour of fear is brown.

I think that for most of us older drivers, we aren't as inclined to look down in the instrument panel for indications of nanny intervention because we didn't have such things for much or most of our driving lives. We drove "by feel" rather than by what any lights might be trying to tell us. I'd been driving for something like 45 years before getting into a car that only had TC, and it wasn't until a couple years after that that we got a car with ESC.

Yeah, drivers with little or no experience sans ESC or TC are more likely to panic once one end or the other of their car comes "unstuck". That's one of the side effects of today's technologies that scares me.


Norm

 

[Gregs24]

Let's be fair, the user manual also says you can use 87 octane

They have to say shit like that to cover their asses. Like how there is also a section on how you shouldn't use your Mustang to tow anything. RtFM is usually good advice, right up until the legal department gets involved.

'Adjust driving style to suit' is the key caveat I mentioned

If you turn everything off and drive like a rock ape on the road you only have yourself to blame for what happens next.

The driver might think they are a 'driving god' drifting around the local neighbourhood, but the residents will probably have a different description ...

As has been mentioned by others - they are safety features on the whole rather than performance features, designed to stop people with exaggerated opinions of their driving abilities from killing themselves. How many people ever declare themselves to be bad drivers, which means by the law of averages some of those 'driving gods' are not quite as good as they think they are.

Agree with Norm - if you want to unsettle the rear then you have to assume responsibility for the outcome (using your skills) and not rely on the car to do it for you.

 

[Gregs24]

Yeah, drivers with little or no experience sans ESC or TC are more likely to panic once one end or the other of their car comes "unstuck". That's one of the side effects of today's technologies that scares me.


Norm

True, but they would have crashed anyway in the old days without it. I have ESC help me out a few times when hitting standing water on a bend in the dark. The car simply tightened it's line rather than drifting wide. I would like to think I would have caught it anyway but the ESC did a very good job and for those mythical bad drivers it would certainly have saved them. Probably why ESC is mandated in Europe.

 

[fatbillybob]

Yeah, drivers with little or no experience sans ESC or TC are more likely to panic once one end or the other of their car comes "unstuck". That's one of the side effects of today's technologies that scares me.


Norm

Driver quality has dropped and so has driver interest. You have kids today 18 with no interest in driving. My generation was behind the wheel the day we turned 15 1/2 and I got my license on my 16th B-day. We need this technology especially the collision avoidance.

That said I can tell you any driver with modest track skills will have lower laptimes with nannies off. I've raced for over 20 years. My 2019 GT is a racecar and my former vette racecar, I use my nannies on track. I race all over the country and many tracks over the last few years I have never seen before. I had to learn them quickly just qualifying and then racing the track. I would run nannies on a few laps while I learned the track and built speed. Then turn the nannies off to lower my laptime. Once at Mid-ohio it started raining mid-race. That track is slick as snot when wet. I was on slick tires so I punched on the nannies to get around the track. I've even had races where I was not 100% like something I ate or a really hot day. Concentration wasn't so good so I'd leave the competition mode nanny on my vette. Nannies are a good tool. I do not see them as an "on or off." Use them like any tool.

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