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Just How Important Is the Traction Control?

Vlad Soare

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Hi,

I know this question sounds like heresy, but please bear with me for a moment. I'm not trying to start yet another debate on the subject of good drivers vs. nannies. I'm all for nannies. I'm just trying to understand how they actually work.

The electronic stability system comprises two components:

1. Traction Control - this senses when a driven wheel loses grip. When that happens it cuts off power. You press the throttle and nothing happens. It will allow only as much torque to be sent to the wheels as the least gripping wheel can handle.
2. AdvanceTrac - this senses when the car's trajectory doesn't correspond to the steering input. When that happens it applies the brakes to various degrees to each individual wheel, to keep the car from spinning.

It's generally agreed that turning the traction control off on the street is bad, and that if you do that you'll eventually go backwards into a tree. Or worse, into a crowd. But will you really? Why would you? Isn't it the job of the AdvanceTrac to keep you on track? Turning off the traction control will merely allow one of the rear wheels to spin. But as long as that spin isn't actually causing the car to swerve you should be fine. And if it does cause it to swerve, then the AdvanceTrac will step in.
The car has a limited slip diff. Even if one wheel spins, the other will still receive a good amount of torque. It will still move. One rear wheel spinning doesn't necessarily mean that the car is out of control. And if it actually gets on the verge of getting out of control, then the AdvanceTrac will keep it straight.
So do we actually need the TC? OK, it's a nice thing to have, but is it actually essential? Is it really so dangerous to turn the TC off, as long as the AdvanceTrac is still up and running?

Thank you.
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ice445

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The system works together, so by turning down one you inherently turn down the other. TC helps a ton in inclement weather, you basically have to try to spin the wheels. AdvanceTrac will catch you if you're being silly or caught unaware. If you know what to expect, the nannies aren't really necessary. But if you're caught unaware, they can definitely help you a lot. I find these long hooded beasts require a very early correction on your part once the rear end starts stepping out, or else you will pass into the doomed zone very quickly.
 

Gregs24

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Hi,

I know this question sounds like heresy, but please bear with me for a moment. I'm not trying to start yet another debate on the subject of good drivers vs. nannies. I'm all for nannies. I'm just trying to understand how they actually work.

The electronic stability system comprises two components:

1. Traction Control - this senses when a driven wheel loses grip. When that happens it cuts off power. You press the throttle and nothing happens. It will allow only as much torque to be sent to the wheels as the least gripping wheel can handle.
2. AdvanceTrac - this senses when the car's trajectory doesn't correspond to the steering input. When that happens it applies the brakes to various degrees to each individual wheel, to keep the car from spinning.

It's generally agreed that turning the traction control off on the street is bad, and that if you do that you'll eventually go backwards into a tree. Or worse, into a crowd. But will you really? Why would you? Isn't it the job of the AdvanceTrac to keep you on track? Turning off the traction control will merely allow one of the rear wheels to spin. But as long as that spin isn't actually causing the car to swerve you should be fine. And if it does cause it to swerve, then the AdvanceTrac will step in.
The car has a limited slip diff. Even if one wheel spins, the other will still receive a good amount of torque. It will still move. One rear wheel spinning doesn't necessarily mean that the car is out of control. And if it actually gets on the verge of getting out of control, then the AdvanceTrac will keep it straight.
So do we actually need the TC? OK, it's a nice thing to have, but is it actually essential? Is it really so dangerous to turn the TC off, as long as the AdvanceTrac is still up and running?

Thank you.
Why don't you turn it off next time it rains and let us know how you get on :wink:

A friend with a 488 Pista (which has far more sophisticated TC systems than any Mustang) managed to get on the verge of a motorway slip road giving it some in a straight line on a cold wet morning - the laws of physics always apply !
 

raptor17GT

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it's very nice to have TC as it allows a certain margin and reaction time for hoofing out of a junction and not worrying about the dam thing spinning round (obv not full throttle 1st gear 90deg - thats never gonna end well) but TC aint gonna save you on a closed throttle - thats Stability Control - does the mustang have this?
 

Rapid Red

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How important ............. my question, is how good is the driver?

I love the long hood, love the view, as to any early turn corrections. One comment, man if someone has to do that, get off the road, take a bus.

Referring to something like the TC feature as another NANNIE feature looking over ones shoulder.

I humbly point out, stuff like that is there. For incompetent driver's that lack the basic skills and common senses. To read and adjust for the different situations incountered that are a norm of driving.
 

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IrishStallion

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I run bolt on E85 a10 unplugged at the airbox for over two years now. Car is too inconsistent with any of the nannies from a dig straight line stuff. Throttle modulation is the only way to go imo. If I was wanting to push the car hard in the corners then stability control is a plus.
 
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Interceptor

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Cruise control will not work when disabled. My biggest complaint with it being disabled. I completely understand why.
 
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Vlad Soare

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Thanks for the replies, but I feel that my question was misunderstood. I'm not interested in a philosophical debate on whether nannies are good or bad. There are already plenty of threads on that subject. I know they're good, so let's get that out of our way.
I just want to understand, technically, what it is that makes TC (and I mean just the TC itself, just the power cutting part) essential, or to put it another way, why can't AdvanceTrac do its job properly without the TC. How would the deactivation of the TC keep the AdvanceTrac from stabilizing the car?

A friend with a 488 Pista (which has far more sophisticated TC systems than any Mustang) managed to get on the verge of a motorway slip road giving it some in a straight line on a cold wet morning - the laws of physics always apply !
In that case the stability control has failed. I'm sure our AdvanceTrac can fail sometimes, too. Shit happens.
But I'm not questioning the stability control. I'm questioning just the TC part. The TC does nothing to stabilize the car; it merely cuts off the power to the driven wheels. Why would its deactivation be such a big no-no? OK, so you spin a wheel. So what? As long as the car maintains its trajectory, spinning a wheel shouldn't be a big deal. And if it doesn't maintain its trajectory, then the AdvanceTrac will step in.
What am I missing?
 
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IrishStallion

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What are you missing? The stability control/advanced trac/traction control all use software/hardware formulas based off a lot of factors (speed, telemetries, wheel slip, etc. etc.) to determine the amount and type(s) of “nannies” to be used in any given situation to keep the car in control. Turning off one or all just limits the amount of computer controlled intervention.
 
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Vlad Soare

Vlad Soare

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Turning off one or all just limits the amount of computer controlled intervention.
OK. Fair point. But that's just a vague, general statement. I'm interested more in the specifics, i.e. how exactly, and by how much, is the intervention limited in this particular case.
It seems to me that the role of the TC is to stop you from getting into the realm of the AdvanceTrac in the first place. A belt and braces approach. However, once you are in that realm, once you get to a point where you need help from the AdvanceTrac, that help will be the same regardless of whether the TC is on or off. Or won't it?
 

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raptor17GT

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be easier if you just google it tbh, every manufacturer has different systems that do different things but basics - TC only cuts power if you have the pedal down and if you already have shut the throttle then TC is not in the game any more
 

gadgtfreek

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I find my car nose kicks to the right every time I do a very aggressive 1-2, usually giving someone a first time ride. If you have ever raced off-road, driven in the mud at high speeds, the muscle memory should be there, and with all the features the car recovers well.

I've always felt something as simple as a fast go-cart on a dirt track is great training for real-world driving. When the nose goes one way, you shouldn't even have to think about what to do.
 

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Even with the vehicle nannies on, a driver can still end up in a bad situation, period. Some folks think that just because vehicle XYZ has incorporated “safety” functions as built, that they are invincible and the “car” will take care of everything for them....

Common sense is the absolute best nannie....
 
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Vlad Soare

Vlad Soare

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I do intend to try it myself. Not on the street, obviously (at least not yet). There's a track close to my home, where you can also hire an instructor to teach you how to control your car at the limit. I want to go there next spring, or possibly even earlier if the weather allows. But until then I was hoping to hear from other, more experienced members, who might have already tried this themselves. :)

The reason why I started this thread is twofold.
First, if I wanted the acceleration response of the Track mode and/or the stiffess of the Track MagneRide mode, then I would have to use the Track mode itself, because there's no way to get them otherwise. But in Track mode the TC is inactive. So, how dangerous would it be to use it on the street? The AdvanceTrac is still active, so theoretically I should be fine. But will I?
Second, sometimes I might want to unsettle the rear end a bit, just a bit, for fun, when no one is around. But the TC won't let me do that. And if I turn it off, I still want the AdvanceTrac to be there and to keep me from crashing if I get it wrong. But will it be as effective without the TC? Will the AdvanceTrac still keep me from crashing if the TC is off? My guess is yes, it will, but I'm not 100% sure, and I was hoping that someone might confirm this.
 

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Thanks for the replies, but I feel that my question was misunderstood. I'm not interested in a philosophical debate on whether nannies are good or bad. There are already plenty of threads on that subject. I know they're good, so let's get that out of our way.
I just want to understand, technically, what it is that makes TC (and I mean just the TC itself, just the power cutting part) essential, or to put it another way, why can't AdvanceTrac do its job properly without the TC. How would the deactivation of the TC keep the AdvanceTrac from stabilizing the car?
Both TC and AdvanceTrac (ESC) can involve both the brakes and engine power.

TC is more concerned with longitudinal traction demands (coming from the driver's use of the throttle) vs available traction. Both braking of a spinning wheel and a reduction of engine output can occur. The Owner Manual suggests that braking happens before any power cut.

ESC needs to be sensing yaw (Z-axis rotation or vertical axis chassis rotation). Possibly any inertial acceleration that has a component not in the vehicle's longitudinal direction.

So in a straight line, you should get TC involved before ESC, but in a corner it's likely to be some of each.

My own experience is that you'll feel both engine power going away and the brakes feeling like they're dragging. I couldn't tell which system was involved, and I doubt most drivers could detect which brake or brakes might be applied without a whole lot of intentional experience. You won't know whether it was TC, ESC, or both unless some instrument panel display is capable of separating them and the driver is actively watching down there instead of out the windshield at where he wants the car to go.


I personally feel that TC would be the one to disable first, being that the driver should have developed a semblance of throttle modulation even if he never challenges the corners hard enough to get the ESC interested on its own. It might make the ESC a tad slower to react to oversteer caused by too much throttle in a high-g corner, given that tire spin from too much throttle would lead any consequential change in yaw by some small but finite amount of time.


Norm
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