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Just How Important Is the Traction Control?

Norm Peterson

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True, but they would have crashed anyway in the old days without it. I have ESC help me out a few times when hitting standing water on a bend in the dark. The car simply tightened it's line rather than drifting wide. I would like to think I would have caught it anyway but the ESC did a very good job and for those mythical bad drivers it would certainly have saved them. Probably why ESC is mandated in Europe.
In the old days, there's at least some chance that any given driver would have encountered a little sliding or 'looseness', and for sure we would not have developed any reliance whatsoever on TC or ESC to save us from any carelessness or lapses in smooth control input.

But you know that drivers today, especially those with only TC- and ESC-assisted driving on their resume, are unwittingly doing exactly that - placing reliance on those systems. Yeah, they'd pretty much be hung out to dry if you could teleport them back to the 1960s.


The driver who panics is the driver who scares me regardless of whether he's getting any electronic assistance. Panic makes for poor decisions, which I don't think can be predicted and fully covered for by computer programming.


Norm
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fatbillybob

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The driver who panics is the driver who scares me regardless of whether he's getting any electronic assistance. Panic makes for poor decisions, which I don't think can be predicted and fully covered for by computer programming.


Norm
Also old cliche..."If you make things foolproof they just make better fools"...applies
 

Norm Peterson

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... I can tell you any driver with modest track skills will have lower laptimes with nannies off. I've raced for over 20 years. My 2019 GT is a racecar and my former vette racecar, I use my nannies on track. I race all over the country and many tracks over the last few years I have never seen before. I had to learn them quickly just qualifying and then racing the track. I would run nannies on a few laps while I learned the track and built speed. Then turn the nannies off to lower my laptime. Once at Mid-ohio it started raining mid-race. That track is slick as snot when wet. I was on slick tires so I punched on the nannies to get around the track. I've even had races where I was not 100% like something I ate or a really hot day. Concentration wasn't so good so I'd leave the competition mode nanny on my vette. Nannies are a good tool. I do not see them as an "on or off." Use them like any tool.
That I get. Of course, we're now talking about whole 'nother levels of skill and experience, and a far more serious kind of driving than what TC and ESC were primarily developed to cope with. Chances are if it's any good for the track, it's not going to be conservative enough for the public at large.

Obviously the calibrations for your 'vette were suitable. But I suspect you wouldn't feel the same way about the nanny calibrations on other street-intended cars, though.


Norm
 

luc

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My 17gtpp is exclusively a track car and I only drive it on the street to and from the track
Street driving I always leave all the ā€œsafety aidsā€, once Iā€™m on the track, every things is off
I also been racing/tracking for a very long time, ( got my scca racing license back in 91 I believe) and I need to feel the car directly reacting to my inputs. My brain, muscle memory and feel for the car are my safety aids
Btw, I havenā€™t pushed a car on the street forever because once you experience driving on a track, you realize that trying to drive fast on the street is stupid and not even fun compared to being on the track
No trying to give any lessons here, just sharing my experience
 
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dx2

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Driver quality has dropped and so has driver interest. You have kids today 18 with no interest in driving. My generation was behind the wheel the day we turned 15 1/2 and I got my license on my 16th B-day. We need this technology especially the collision avoidance.
For today's generation the interest in driving itself dropped while the interest in using their toys behind the wheel (smartphone texting) exploded which is why they need the collision avoidance tech more than we do.
 

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dx2

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I found this section in the workshop manual in regard to esc, tc and advancetrac (my2020): There's more but I think this might give give some interesting details in order to get the relations between the modules, messages and sensor inputs. If it is not allowed to post content from the workshop manual, please remove.

Supplemental Braking Assist
The ABS module uses the HCU and hydraulic pump motor to help bring the vehicle to a safe, controlled stop in the event of severe vacuum loss in the brake booster. The ABS module continually monitors the vacuum in the brake booster through the use of a vacuum sensor. When the vacuum sensor indicates vacuum is below a predetermined level, a DTC is set in the ABS module. The ABS module sends a message to the GWM over the HS-CAN2 to illuminate the red brake warning indicator, the GWM relays this message to the IPC over the HS-CAN3. If a low vacuum condition occurs during a braking event or if the driver attempts to stop the vehicle with a low vacuum condition in the brake booster, the ABS module activates the hydraulic pump motor in the HCU to assist with vehicle braking.

On vehicles equipped with adaptive cruise control, the CCM monitors the area forward of the vehicle. When an object enters this area and closes the distance gap set by the driver, the CCM sends either an adaptive cruise control deceleration request or a collision avoidance deceleration request to the IPMA over a private LIN. The IPMA then sends the message to the ABS module over the HS-CAN2. When the deceleration request message is received, the ABS module activates the hydraulic pump motor and solenoid valves in the HCU to slow the vehicle down to maintain the distance gap set by the driver. Once the distance gap set by the driver is achieved, the CCM stops sending the deceleration request message and the ABS module deactivates the hydraulic pump motor and solenoid valves in the HCU. If the CCM determines the amount of braking provided by the ABS module is insufficient, the
CCM sends a forward collision avoidance braking request message and warns the driver, both audibly and visually, through the use of the HUD. After receiving the braking request message, the ABS module waits for brake pedal input and, once received, applies maximum braking assist using the hydraulic pump motor and the HCU.

Refer to: Cruise Control - System Operation and Component Description (419-03B Cruise Control - Vehicles With: Adaptive Cruise Control, Description and Operation).
Refer to: Collision Warning and Collision Avoidance System - System Operation and Component Description (419-03C Collision Warning and Collision Avoidance System, Description and Operation).

AdvanceTrac
The AdvanceTrac feature is comprised of the traction control and ESC features.

Electronic Stability Control (ESC)
The ABS module continuously monitors the vehicle motion relative to the intended course. This is done by using sensors to compare the steering wheel sensor messages and the yaw rate sensor messages with the actual vehicle motion. The ABS module receives the steering wheel sensor messages from the PSCM and the yaw rate sensor
messages from the RCM, both messages are sent over the HS-CAN2. If the ABS module determines from the inputs the vehicle is unable to travel in the intended direction, it modulates the brake pressure to the appropriate brake caliper(s) by opening and closing the appropriate solenoid valves inside the HCU while the hydraulic pump motor is activated. At the same time the ABS module calculates how much engine torque reduction is required to reduce vehicle speed to help stabilize the vehicle and sends this torque reduction message, along with an ESC event
message, to the GWM over the HS-CAN2. The GWM sends the torque reduction message to the PCM over the HS-CAN1 and the ESC event message to the IPC over the HS-CAN3. When the PCM receives the torque reduction message, it adjusts engine timing and decreases fuel injector pulses to reduce the engine torque to the requested level. When the IPC receives this message, it flashes the stability-traction control indicator (sliding car icon). Once the vehicle instability has been corrected, the ABS module returns the solenoid valves in the HCU to their normal position, deactivates the hydraulic pump motor and stops sending the traction event and torque reduction messages. The PCM returns engine timing and fuel injectors to normal operation and the IPC extinguishes the stability-traction control indicator (sliding car icon).

ESC does not operate with the transmission in REVERSE. ESC is disabled if there is a wheel speed sensor, RCM stability sensor or steering angle sensor DTC present in the ABS module. ESC is also disabled if there is a communication error between the ABS module and the PSCM or the ABS module and the RCM. When ESC is disabled, the ABS module sends a message to the GWM over the HS-CAN2 which relays the message to the IPC over the HS-CAN3 to illuminate the stability-traction control OFF indicator (sliding car OFF icon).

Traction Control
The ABS module continuously monitors and compares the rotational speed of the drive wheels in relation to the non-driven wheels. When the drive wheels begin to spin faster than the non-driven wheels, the ABS module modulates brake pressure to the appropriate brake caliper(s) by opening and closing the appropriate solenoid valves
inside the HCU while the hydraulic pump motor is activated. At the same time, the ABS module calculates how much engine torque reduction is required to eliminate the wheel slip and sends this torque reduction message along with a traction event message to the GWM over the HS-CAN2. The GWM sends the engine torque reduction
message to the PCM over the HS-CAN1 and the traction event message to the IPC over the HS-CAN3. When the PCM receives the torque reduction message, it adjusts engine timing and decreases fuel injector pulses to reduce the engine torque to the requested level. When the IPC receives the traction event message it flashes the stability-traction control indicator (sliding car icon). Once the driven wheel speed returns to the desired speed, the ABS module returns the solenoid valves in the HCU to their normal position, deactivates the hydraulic pump motor and stops sending the traction event and torque reduction messages. The PCM returns engine timing and fuel injectors to normal operation and the IPC extinguishes the stability-traction control indicator (sliding car icon).

Traction control can be disabled through the use of the stability-traction control switch in the center of the instrument panel. This is independent of the ABS which cannot be disabled by the driver. When the driver disables traction control, the FCIM communicates traction control status to the GWM over the MS-CAN. The GWM sends
the message to the ABS module over the HS-CAN2. The ABS module takes no further action in regards to traction control until the driver activates the function or until the ignition is cycled from OFF to ON.

Traction control is disabled if there is a wheel speed sensor or solenoid valve DTC present in the ABS module. Traction control is also disabled if there is a communication error between the ABS module and the GWM. When
traction control is disabled, the ABS module sends a message to the GWM over the HS-CAN2 which relays the message to the IPC over the HS-CAN3 to illuminate the stability-traction control OFF indicator (sliding car OFF icon).

Disabling AdvanceTrac
The traction control feature can be disabled through the use of the stability-traction control switch, on some models the ESC feature can also be disabled. The ESC feature is disabled when REVERSE gear is selected or when the stability-traction control switch is pressed in the following manner:
  • Button pressed momentarily: traction control is disabled, ESC is enabled.
  • Button pressed twice rapidly: Sport mode is enabled (if equipped), traction control and ESC are enabled with modified intervention thresholds. Sport Mode is not available on vehicles equipped with Selectable Driving Modes.
  • Button pressed and held for more than 5 seconds: AdvanceTrac off mode, traction control and ESC are both disabled.
  • Button pressed again after deactivation: traction control and ESC are both enabled.
  • Regardless of the driver selected state of the AdvanceTrac feature, when the ignition is cycled from ON to OFF and back to ON, both the traction control and the ESC are reset to enabled.

MyKeyĀ® Interaction
Through the MyKeyĀ® feature, traction control and ESC can be configured to be always on or allow the driver to select traction control and ESC on or off. When MyKeyĀ® traction control feature is configured to be always on and a MyKeyĀ® restricted key is in use, the ABS module ignores any requests made by the driver to disable traction
control or ESC. In addition, when MyKeyĀ® traction control feature is configured to be always on and a MyKeyĀ® restricted key is in use, Sport mode and AdvanceTrac Off mode are not available. Refer to Disabling AdvanceTrac for information on Sport mode and AdvanceTrac Off mode. Refer to the Owner's Literature for additional
information on the MyKeyĀ® feature and settings.

Stability-Traction Control Indicator (Sliding Car Icon)
One or both of the stability-traction control indicators may illuminate as a result of momentary sensor disturbances due to environmental or driving conditions (including severe vehicle maneuvers or extreme off road usage). Once
Illuminated, the indicator remains illuminated until the environmental or driving condition is no longer present and the ignition is cycled from ON to OFF and then back to ON again. If there are no other customer concerns, symptoms, indicators or Diagnostic Trouble Codes (DTCs), the stability-traction control indicator may have been illuminated due to these environmental or driving conditions.

Launch Control
The launch control feature works in conjunction with the stability control system and PCM to maximize traction from a standing start acceleration in a straight line. Launch control enables a unique "drag start" traction control calibration designed for high grip surfaces. The system allows the driver to set and hold a desired launch RPM
depending on tire temperature, surface condition or weather.

The driver activates and configures the launch control feature through the message center, see the Owner's Literature for specific information. The launch control system can only be activated when the stability control system is fully enabled. Once activated, the launch control feature remains ON until the driver deactivates it, the
system does not reset when the ignition is cycled.

Line Lock
The line lock feature works in conjunction with the stability control system to "lock" the front brakes and allow the rear wheels to spin freely during throttle application to achieve maximum traction prior to use at a race track. The line lock feature is intended for use at race tracks only and should not be used on public roadways.

The driver initializes the line lock feature through the message center, see the Owner's Literature for specific information. Once initialized, the line lock feature is not activated and the vehicle brakes function normally. Line lock remains initialized up to 40 km/h (25 mph), once vehicle speed exceeds 40 km/h (25 mph) the line lock feature is automatically cancelled. Following initialization the line lock feature can be engaged, once engaged the ABS module closes isolation valves in the HCU to maintain the brake pressure in the front brake calipers while allowing the rear wheels to spin freely and a count-down timer begins. If the line lock feature is not used within this time limit or a vehicle condition requires the line lock feature to deactivate, the line lock feature is deactivated. Pressing the brake pedal while the line lock feature is activated automatically deactivates the line lock feature and normal brake function resumes.

Selectable Driving Modes
The MODE switch in the center of the instrument panel allows the driver to change between 4 driving modes. These driving modes alter the throttle response, shift patterns, EPAS feel, suspension feel and stability control intervention thresholds. Toggling the switch causes the FCIM to send messages to the PCM, PSCM, ABS module
and IPC message center. The IPC message center displays the current selected mode. The PCM, PSCM and ABS module respond to the message by modifying their operation according to a preprogrammed set of instructions.
  • Normal: delivers a balanced combination of comfort, control and handling.
  • Drag Strip: steering, throttle, shift responses and active dampers are all optimized for straight line acceleration.
  • Snow-Wet: provides increased handling, braking and control during poor weather conditions.
  • Sport: increases throttle response and helps your vehicle accelerate faster, but does not change the vehicle dynamics or stability system.
  • Sport+: increases throttle response, active exhaust takes on a more powerful tone, the suspension active dampers become stiffer reducing body motion and steering becomes more precise.
  • Track: provides increased steering, throttle and shift responses, the active damper are optimized for transient handling maneuvers, and the threshold for AdvanceTrac intervention is modified for maximum control.

One or more of the selectable drive modes is disabled if Diagnostic Trouble Codes (DTCs) are present in the PCM, PSCM or ABS module. If the selectable drive modes are disabled, the IPC message center displays Drive Mode Selection Not Available when the switch is toggled.

Component Description

Anti-Lock Brake System (ABS) Module
The ABS module is attached directly to the HCU and is the electronic control unit for all of the ABS and stability control systems. The ABS module monitors all sensor inputs and all CAN messages relating to ABS and stability control, then directly controls the solenoid valves and the hydraulic pump motor in the HCU. The ABS module is
available separately for service.

When a new ABS module is installed, it must be programmed with the vehicle configuration information and programmed with the latest level of module software.
Refer to: Module Configuration - System Operation and Component Description (418-01 Module Configuration, Description and Operation).
When an ABS or stability control system fault has been corrected or a new component has been installed, the ABS module must be calibrated. The calibration procedure (IVD Initialization) is carried out using a diagnostic scan tool and is required for the stability control sensors to learn the zero-position of the vehicle. The calibration procedure
requires the vehicle to be on a level surface and not moving.

Brake Booster Vacuum Sensor
The brake booster vacuum sensor is a piezoelectric device used by the ABS module to monitor the vacuum in the brake booster. The sensor is hardwired to the ABS module by 3 circuits. One circuit is for the 5 volt sensor supply, one circuit is for sensor ground and one circuit is for sensor output. The sensor output ranges from 0.2 volt to 4.9
volts, depending on the amount of vacuum in the booster.

Hydraulic Control Unit (HCU)
The HCU contains the solenoid valves, the hydraulic pump motor and the pressure sensor used by the ABS module for the various stability control systems. The ABS module and the HCU are attached directly together. The HCU is available separately for service.

Selectable Driving Mode Switch
The selectable driving modes switch is a momentary-contact, toggle style switch and is part of the FCIM. If a new switch is required, then a new FCIM must be installed.

Stability Control Sensors
The stability control sensors for the vehicle dynamic system consist of the yaw rate sensor, lateral accelerometer and longitudinal accelerometer. The sensors are housed in the RCM which sends sensor information to the ABS module over the HS-CAN2. If any of the sensors are defective, a new RCM must be installed.
  • The yaw rate sensor measures the yaw angle which is the difference between the direction the vehicle is pointing when cornering and the direction the vehicle is actually moving.
  • The longitudinal accelerometer measures the acceleration and deceleration of the vehicle as it moves forward and backward.
  • The lateral accelerometer measures the force created when a vehicle corners that tends to push a vehicle sideways.
Lateral acceleration has 2 forms. The first is the centrifugal acceleration generated when the vehicle travels around in a circle. The second is the acceleration due to gravity. On level ground there is no lateral acceleration due to gravity. However, if the vehicle is parked sideways on a bank or incline, the sensor measures some lateral
acceleration due to gravity, even though the vehicle is not moving.

Stability-Traction Control OFF Switch
The stability-traction control OFF switch is either a momentary-contact, push-button style switch or a momentary-
contact, toggle style switch depending on optional vehicle features. Regardless of switch type, the stability-traction control switch is part of the FCIM and if a new switch is required, then a new FCIM must be installed.

Steering Wheel Rotation Sensor
The steering wheel rotational speed, angle and direction of travel is calculated by the PSCM using multiple sensors and CAN messages. This information is sent to the ABS module over the HS-CAN2.

Wheel Speed Sensors
All 4 wheel speed sensors are active (magneto resistive) sensors operating on the Hall-effect principle to generate a square wave signal proportional to the rotational speed of the wheel. Because these are active sensors, receiving voltage from the ABS module and sending a varying voltage back to the ABS module, they are able to detect much lower rotational speeds than passive (magnetic inductive) sensors. Each wheel speed sensor is connected to the ABS module by 2 circuits. One circuit provides voltage for sensor operation and the other circuit provides sensor input to the ABS module.

Wheel Speed Sensor Encoders
The front wheel speed senor encoders are non-magnetized, toothed rings pressed into the front wheel hub. The rear wheel speed sensor encoders are magnetized, toothed rings pressed onto the rear wheel hub. As the wheel hub rotates the wheel speed sensor is exposed to magnetic fields or alternating strength. The encoders are part of the wheel hubs and are serviced with the hubs.
 

torqued

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The reason why I started this thread is twofold.
First, if I wanted the acceleration response of the Track mode and/or the stiffess of the Track MagneRide mode, then I would have to use the Track mode itself, because there's no way to get them otherwise.
I don't feel any difference in acceleration response or stiffness in Track over Sport. Because it doesn't seem to gain me anything I never use Track.

But in Track mode the TC is inactive.
What confuses me is I can use the TC toggle switch below the climate controls and get the display between the gauges to give me a dialog box that says TC is back on, but after saying OK it still shows the TC off warning light.
 
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Vlad Soare

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I think it safe to say that for most drivers if ESC is active they will not be looking at which warning light is flashing. The colour of fear is brown.
Actually, on the two or three occasions that I had the TC intervene my first thought was "Wow! So you really can unsettle these cars. That's so cool." šŸ˜
My second thought was "why did it step in so early and so strongly? I thought it was supposed to be more relaxed"
No trace of fear at all.

There is only so much all of the systems can do - if the grip is not there then you will crash. If you are not grip limited then they will do nothing, if grip is severely limited there will be little they can do (such as ice) - they only really work in moderate grip levels.
Of course. If you enter a 40 mph corner at 100 mph you will go off the road. If you mash the throttle on ice you will spin. But I'm not talking about extremes. I'm talking about situations in which there's a fair amount of grip, but somehow you exceed it a bit, just a bit, either intentionally or by mistake.

Pretty sure I have seen graphs on here that showed throttle response in sport+ and track are the same.
I've seen those graphs, but I'm not sure they're correct. I have some doubts. I've watched an interview of Jay Leno with Dave Pericak, and at some point the drive modes were brought up. Dave Pericak said the Track mode is perfect for the track particularly because its throttle response is perfectly linear. Admittedly, they were talking about the GT500, but I find it hard to believe that the programming can be drastically different in the GT. Sure, there will be differences, but I don't think that the very philosophy of each mode, its most basic meaning, is different. It actually makes sense to get a perfectly linear response on the track, because that's when you want the car to be as predictable as possible and to respond as accurately as possible to your inputs. On the track you don't want to press the pedal down to 90% and the throttle to open 100%, do you? Also, I did occasionally hear other forum members say that they preferred the Track mode because of its linear throttle response.
That's why I'm not convinced that those graphs were correct.

On another note, Iā€™ve been surprised how much wheel spin the system will let you have in a straight line / low speed in sport+
I expected it to allow a bit of play, since everybody seems to agree on this point, and was very surprised to find that it didn't. Nothing at all. It stepped in and killed it right away.
But I was in Normal mode. I'll have to try in Sport+. Maybe it's different.

Still not sure about this part. But I think you'd do well to lose the desire to 'unsettle the rear' if only to not let it work against the 'driving smoothly' part. This does not mean you have to take all of the 'enthusiastic driving' out of your driving, just smooth it all out and use that to reinforce all of your driving. Hell, I might never take curves or highway ramps at less than half a g in the dry if it wasn't for traffic in front of me going slower.
I don't intend to make a habit of it. But it would be nice if I could do it when I wanted to.
There's a road that goes around a shopping center towards the rear entrance into the underground parking. At one point it makes a right turn at about 100 degrees. The road is wide, and in the corner it's even wider. There's absolutely no danger of losing grip in that corner while driving normally. None at all. Even when the road is soaking wet, 40 mph is perfectly safe. Maybe even more.
This time it was wet, and there was no one around. I accelerated to about 40 mph on the straight and knew that if I held that speed constant round the corner all would be fine. But as I entered the corner I thought: "if I give it some gas now, the rear end might slide towards the left. I'll have to be prepared to countersteer immediately. Let's see how it goes. It will be fun". I had done this before, I knew what to do. And since I was completely expecting it, there was no chance of me being taken by surprise and reacting badly.
But it didn't work. At the very first sign of slippage the power was cut off abruptly. There was no acceleration for a split second, and the car stayed on its course as if it had been on rails.

But what if the TC wasn't active? Would then the rear end start sliding? Would I have to correct it by countersteering, as I expected? And then if I got it right that would be the end of it, whereas if I got it wrong the AdvanceTrac would intervene and save the day?
That's how I'm imagining it, but I'm wary of trying it in case I'm imagining it wrongly. Hence this thread.

What confuses me is I can use the TC toggle switch below the climate controls and get the display between the gauges to give me a dialog box that says TC is back on, but after saying OK it still shows the TC off warning light.
Yes, exactly. I've noticed that, too. Very confusing.
 
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Gregs24

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Of course. If you enter a 40 mph corner at 100 mph you will go off the road. If you mash the throttle on ice you will spin. But I'm not talking about extremes. I'm talking about situations in which there's a fair amount of grip, but somehow you exceed it a bit, just a bit, either intentionally or by mistake.
The trouble is grip loss is not linear whatever the conditions. When you exceed the grip possible (at the time in question) there is a sudden drop in mu. Road tyres will go to about 3% slip whilst maintaining grip, but go beyond that and the grip vanishes as the wheel spins or slides laterally - it effectively drops off a cliff.

If you are turning off any part of the system you are limiting how the car can react and you have to replace that car activity with your own skill.

The post above says AdvanceTrac consists of ESC and TC - it is not an entity on it's own, so if you turn off TC or ESC then AdvanceTrac is not going to be as effective or do anything.
 

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Not as important as stability control lol
 

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Hack

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Wrong. At least wrong in the Mustang. Advancetrac is terribly intrusive in this car (Track mode included) and will slow down any decent driver. Even in the rain, it sucks.

Motorsports systems are about 1000 times better than this - and yes - they work well, but they're for motorsports, are expensive and tuned for racing - look up Bosch Motorsports ABS system for example. Advancetrac in this car (and pretty much any large volume car) is for safety and nothing else.
Cars like GT3 RS - maybe, don't know enough about them. Mustang GT - yeah, hell no.
IMO this is the best post in the thread. Because the answer to the OP's question is, "it depends". In my 2011 Brembo GT and my 2015 base GT I would turn off the traction control every single time I got in the car. Even in winter on any but the most icy days I would turn it off. The traction control was so extremely over-intrusive in those cars that it was extremely frustrating for me to drive the car with it on.

There's a corner near my house where the road I turn onto slopes up steeply and it would trick the TC every single time. Perfect place to nail the throttle (if the TC will let you).

The 2015 was much better than the 2011, however. As the control systems and sensors got faster and the engineers grew their knowledge bases, the systems got better. And those systems are continuing to get better all the time.

In my 2016 GT350 I didn't ever turn off the traction control on the street. It would have been pointless because I never noticed it intruding.

Even on track in my GT350 when it was new I started with TC on and it was rare for me to feel it doing anything. Only when I made a mistake did I really notice it. On track I drive for fun and not ultimate times. I'm not frying my tires to try to get one second faster, etc.

In Utah at the Track Attack they had us use Sport Mode and that let those cars move around quite a bit. We had some rain spitting and it made the paint lines slippery, so it was really easy to notice that the TC wasn't stepping in very quickly.

So IMO the real answer to the OP's question will be different for every model Mustang. The PP1 and PP2 will definitely be different than the GT. Newer models will be different than older ones. And the Mach 1 will probably be similar to the GT350. I'm sure the GT500 has unique TC and advance trac tuning due to the massive power and the DCT.

I think that for most of us older drivers, we aren't as inclined to look down in the instrument panel for indications of nanny intervention because we didn't have such things for much or most of our driving lives. We drove "by feel" rather than by what any lights might be trying to tell us. I'd been driving for something like 45 years before getting into a car that only had TC, and it wasn't until a couple years after that that we got a car with ESC.

Yeah, drivers with little or no experience sans ESC or TC are more likely to panic once one end or the other of their car comes "unstuck". That's one of the side effects of today's technologies that scares me.


Norm
Until 2011 I was driving 80s Mustangs year round. I don't miss the hair trigger tension I had to cultivate in myself on icy days. I do miss things like downshifting to transfer weight and get the front tires to bite, etc.

I'm sure you will agree - once a person is familiar with a car it's really easy to notice when the nannies intervene (at least for those of us with a fair amount of experience driving older cars).

One thing I've noticed on track especially is that it's not easy to figure out how much throttle you can feed to the car. As a complete novice I always tended to wait too long to start getting on it and then went from zero to full throttle much too quickly. As I currently am a little more knowledgeable I'm starting to feed it earlier and intensely monitoring the car to determine how quickly it can be applied. This is one of the things TC does for people but the car's performance on track will be a lot better if the driver feeds just enough rather than having the driver nail it and the TC cut it back.
 

Norm Peterson

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Actually, on the two or three occasions that I had the TC intervene my first thought was "Wow! So you really can unsettle these cars. That's so cool." šŸ˜
My second thought was "why did it step in so early and so strongly? I thought it was supposed to be more relaxed"
No trace of fear at all.
That's the way it's supposed to work. The corrections are supposed to be 'benign' so that they don't introduce any panic due to their intervention. For most average drivers, that's all that matters (and about all they'd notice if they notice much of anything at all).

It's the driver who is much more familiar with operating his car at higher levels of performance for whom TC or ESC interventions can occur a good bit earlier than absolutely necessary (and feel somewhat frustrating as a result).

Some mfrs' systems are set more conservatively (earlier intervention) than others.


Norm
 

Norm Peterson

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I expected it to allow a bit of play, since everybody seems to agree on this point, and was very surprised to find that it didn't. Nothing at all. It stepped in and killed it right away.
But I was in Normal mode. I'll have to try in Sport+. Maybe it's different.
I wouldn't expect Normal mode to allow very much at all before clamping down. Keep in mind that this is the default mode on start-up and intended to keep the car's behavior within the skill set of anybody who is likely to be driving it.


I don't intend to make a habit of it. But it would be nice if I could do it when I wanted to.
There's a road that goes around a shopping center towards the rear entrance into the underground parking. At one point it makes a right turn at about 120 degrees. The road is wide, and in the corner it's even wider. There's absolutely no danger of losing grip in that corner while driving normally. None at all. Even when the road is soaking wet, 40 mph is perfectly safe. Maybe even more.
This time it was wet, and there was no one around. I accelerated to about 40 mph on the straight and knew that if I held that speed constant round the corner all would be fine. But as I entered the corner I thought: "if I give it some gas now, the rear end might slide towards the left. I'll have to be prepared to countersteer immediately. Let's see how it goes. It will be fun". I had done this before, I knew what to do. And since I was completely expecting it, there was no chance of me being taken by surprise and reacting badly.
But it didn't work. At the very first sign of slippage the power was cut off abruptly. There was no acceleration for a split second, and the car stayed on its course as if it had been on rails.
That's probably the exact reason TC works that way. People over-estimating the available grip, or their talent, or both. Or just trying something on a whim.


But what if the TC wasn't active? Would then the rear end start sliding? Would I have to correct it by countersteering, as I expected? And then if I got it right that would be the end of it, whereas if I got it wrong the AdvanceTrac would intervene and save the day?
That's how I'm imagining it, but I'm wary of trying it in case I'm imagining it wrongly. Hence this thread.
TC off and too much throttle in a corner, my money would absolutely be on the tail trying to come around on you. Though it would depend on how hard you stepped into the throttle trying to get the tail 'loose'. Really fine throttle modulation and good feel for tire grip can allow you to loosen the tail up only a little or add a little push in certain situations/through certain road geometries.

There is zero reason to expect the car to behave any differently than an otherwise identical car with no nannies between the point where TC would have stepped in and the point where ESC would step in. I'm pretty sure that an experienced track day driver with wet experience would first feel the need to countersteer, which then might or might not be enough (or applied soon enough/accurately enough) to keep the AdvanceTrac from doing anything. I wouldn't take that bet for the average street-only driver picked at random.


Norm
 

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IMO this is the best post in the thread. Because the answer to the OP's question is, "it depends".
Precisely.

Motorsports is the easy set of conditions to design and calibrate for. Street driving can vary far more, and there is certainly a wider range of driver skill that needs to be considered.


I'm sure you will agree - once a person is familiar with a car it's really easy to notice when the nannies intervene (at least for those of us with a fair amount of experience driving older cars).
This ^^^

At that point, I would expect a driver to be able to clearly notice the different feel when the tires are operating at slight slip angles as compared to straight ahead driving. Something that's probably harder to pick up on these days.


One thing I've noticed on track especially is that it's not easy to figure out how much throttle you can feed to the car. As a complete novice I always tended to wait too long to start getting on it and then went from zero to full throttle much too quickly. As I currently am a little more knowledgeable I'm starting to feed it earlier and intensely monitoring the car to determine how quickly it can be applied. This is one of the things TC does for people but the car's performance on track will be a lot better if the driver feeds just enough rather than having the driver nail it and the TC cut it back.
I think we all have to work on corner exit at least in the beginning, some more than others. In my case it's about how early rather than how fast to add throttle. A lifetime of driving with some enthusiasm, combined with conscious effort to avoid upsetting any passengers who may be present, will do that.


Until 2011 I was driving 80s Mustangs year round. I don't miss the hair trigger tension I had to cultivate in myself on icy days. I do miss things like downshifting to transfer weight and get the front tires to bite, etc.
That right there makes me glad I'm retired and pretty much don't have to go anywhere if I don't want to. But I do remember a few stressful winter drives, the worst of which involved a combination of up-slope and side-slope where any brake activation whatsoever or even a percent or so throttle change (either way) would have put me into a Jersey median barrier. 1979 V8 Chevy Malibu. I don't ever want to go through anything like that again.


Norm
 

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legacy traction control worked on my ABS equipped [old] Fords by applying brake to the spinning wheel. that system worked. never a problem in snow. drove my 95 CV on sand down an incline at a beach with a posted sign [4 wheel drive vehicles only] no problem going down or up - the ABS was busy. Ford used the Bosch controller. for brake control it pulsed pressure out on any wheel locking under hard stop power. independent hall effect wheel sensor on each wheel. traction control was only active below 30 mph. it pulsed brake pressure in on the spinning wheel.

do not know how S550 TC system differs. assumed it is the same. have a helical gear Detroit True Track differential on the '07 GT. TC always off.. best system i have driven. all mechanical. been in rear end coming around corners three times, too much power too soon, lift off throttle, the car snaps into instant trail of the front wheels and you hear the tires chirp as they go back into grip. have started the GT with right wheels on ice next to a curb, it just took off like it was july. true tracks are a $500 component, but they should be in every rear wheel drive car.
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