GT500 vs ZLE

thill444

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Conclusion; The ZLE bunker and stiff chassis/suspension argument needs to go away. My sarcastic comment implied that they have absolutely no negative impact on performance.
USA!
It will never go away. Every review points it out and it is a compromise one has to make when buying the car. Does that mean that nobody should every buy a ZLE? No, not at all. But when you are comparing the ZLE to a car with similar or better track performance (GT500) and it does not have the same compromises on ergonomics and ride comfort it will be discussed.

Especially on a Mustang forum. Many of us have driven the ZLE and passed on the car because of these issues. If I just wanted a track car I would buy a ZLE. I don't. I need daily driver that I can take to the track occasionally. I am guessing most buyers are much more like me (or never go to the track).

Going back to the Throttle House review it's why three of the four people picked the GT500. People buy cars for lots of reasons beyond tenths of a second on a track.

The one thing that keeps drawing me to the ZL1 /ZL1 1LE is the manual transmission. Kudos to GM for still offering that.





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shogun32

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Unfortunately very few will use it for its intended purpose
it's purpose was to first of fall separate you from your money, to "strut your status to lesser peers", to employ some workers in the Ford assembly line and supplier factories, give Ford engineers and designers something to do, and for Ford management to reward themselves an out-sized share of the profits. And help draw foot traffic to even podunk dealers, and "gussy up" Ford's image to the buying public.

I think it accomplished it's goals rather well. :)
You mean these cars were supposed to be seen filling HPDE grids at tracks across the country?

When I step from my GTI into the Mustang it's "shocking" how much like a bunker it feels. 20 minutes later and I'm all re-calibrated. Ditto Mustang to Camaro.
 

Minn19

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You didn't get my point. Two identically handling cars....with the same feel. One has a kidney jarring ride, one has a much more compliant ride. None are choosing the the former. Don't overthink this...don't try to say....but the kidney jarring ride would have better feel. It's a simple statement that holds true. Again, I'm not saying this is what is happening with the GT500 and ZLE. It's just a statement.

With that said, the GT500 CFTP is overpriced....for you. It's overpriced for anyone not willing to scour the nation for and MSRP deal. They will sell every single one of them. People buy things for reasons beyond performance. I don't like it. You don't like it. Rich fu$%s don't care. They'll buy whatever they want regardless of price. Same goes to those folks that don't contribute to their 401k and buy $1k cell phones for their children once a year.
Of course the feel is different and I don’t think it is a kidney jarring ride. I’ve put 3k miles on my ZLE so far this winter alone. Just because you don’t think the feel is different doesn’t make it true. I’m not willing to spend 30-70k more over a ZLE for a better ride and an automatic no matter how good the DCT is.

Yea it is overpriced for me, especially at the ADM asking price. I don’t care what anyone does with their money, but I do think it is a shame that those people that don’t even use the car as intended lock out a ton of other people from the market. As I said earlier, I’d rather have a loaded Raptor and a GT350R for essentially the same money or I’m going manual GTS 911.

The only people getting anywhere near an MSRP deal on a CFTP GT500 (much less a base GT500) are people very much in the know etc. Scouring the nation will do 98% of people no good. It is the same as it was the GT350, especially the R. But, you Ford guys take it and pay it so be it.
 

Minn19

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it's purpose was to first of fall separate you from your money, to "strut your status to lesser peers", to employ some workers in the Ford assembly line and supplier factories, give Ford engineers and designers something to do, and for Ford management to reward themselves an out-sized share of the profits. And help draw foot traffic to even podunk dealers, and "gussy up" Ford's image to the buying public.

I think it accomplished it's goals rather well. :)
You mean these cars were supposed to be seen filling HPDE grids at tracks across the country?
Good points, we’ll said.
 

kilobravo

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Jason: I'm wondering if you feel the same way about someone who buys a Rolex but doesn't scuba?

And no one was "locked out" by someone else. You either found a dealer with a Golden Ticket allocation or you didn't.
 

Minn19

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Jason: I'm wondering if you feel the same way about someone who buys a Rolex but doesn't scuba?

And no one was "locked out" by someone else. You either found a dealer with a Golden Ticket allocation or you didn't.
I don't buy watches and go look at the old GT350 ADM threads and tell me again if long time Ford owners/loyalists didn't feel that way. It'll be the same thing with the 500.
 

MaskedRacerX

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Jason: I'm wondering if you feel the same way about someone who buys a Rolex but doesn't scuba?
Yeah, I wear a suit of armor and carry a lance, but I don't joust. So sue me!
 

Hack

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There are a few here that think Randy is very biased towards GM and allegedly continually "sandbags" it in whatever Ford he is in. :crazy:
He bought a Camaro so he obviously likes Camaros. That is the definition of bias. Preferring one thing over another.

I don't know if he sandbags or not, but he definitely does a better job driving the GM products than he does in Fords. I can't understand it myself.

Both are compromised is my point, I happen to like mine more compromised to the track/performance side and the majority here apparently like it to the comfort side.

Comparing these two cars to essentially souped family hatchbacks that will brake/heat fade etc 2-3 laps into a HPDE isn't very analogous IMO.

I'm seriously susrpside a lot of you don't just buy some version of a Hellcat and change out the wheels etc for better 1/4 mile performance. That is your comfy DD and 1/4 mile king right there with a few changes. The deals on those are crazy right now.
The Hellcat and GT500 definitely have some similarities. The GT500 is more tuned for grip and speed whereas the Hellcat is more tuned for burnouts. IMO there's a significant difference between them.

I'm definitely tempted by the Challenger offerings. I'm manual only, but if I ever decided to stop going to the road course I would probably buy a Challenger of some sort. They are nice on the road.

Because I like how one feels over the other? Why would one choose a manual over a DCT? I have three cars, if I don't want my precious tush bothered like you guys, I have an F150 or my wife's M550 at my disposal. I like my fun cars to be more raw etc and well fun. I don't see a DCT GT500 being that much fun cruising around town etc. Even the reviewers that love the car have mentioned that.

You are correct, the GT500 CFTP is way overpriced when you factor in ADM. Very few are getting them at MSRP for quite a while unless the economy suddenly tanks or something. Even then it my be tough because all the rich posers who like to brag to their friends will put one in there garage and take it out only for car shows etc. . Unfortunately very few will use it for its intended purpose.
The reason one car has ADM and another can be sold under MSRP is how many people out there want to buy them versus how many are available. If a car doesn't sell it's overpriced (I would say that the ZL1 1LE is over priced at MSRP). Since the GT500 is selling at over MSRP - definitely MSRP isn't overpriced. Some ADMs are overpriced, but many are not.
 

Strokerswild

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To that end, I wonder if the GT500 would be selling as well if it didn't have the mystical Shelby name affixed to it....
 

thill444

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ZLE has been out a few years did they have an ADM when it first came out? I can tell you here in New England most dealers will not come down much off MSRP on a ZL1 or ZLE. $3-5K is the typical discount. I have never seen once priced below 15% off MSRP here and definitely not 25%+ like some deals on Corvettes.
 

Minn19

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He bought a Camaro so he obviously likes Camaros. That is the definition of bias. Preferring one thing over another.

I don't know if he sandbags or not, but he definitely does a better job driving the GM products than he does in Fords. I can't understand it myself.



The Hellcat and GT500 definitely have some similarities. The GT500 is more tuned for grip and speed whereas the Hellcat is more tuned for burnouts. IMO there's a significant difference between them.

I'm definitely tempted by the Challenger offerings. I'm manual only, but if I ever decided to stop going to the road course I would probably buy a Challenger of some sort. They are nice on the road.



The reason one car has ADM and another can be sold under MSRP is how many people out there want to buy them versus how many are available. If a car doesn't sell it's overpriced (I would say that the ZL1 1LE is over priced at MSRP). Since the GT500 is selling at over MSRP - definitely MSRP isn't overpriced. Some ADMs are overpriced, but many are not.
Ask the R guys that paid huge ADMs over the last few years and even some that paid them for regular GT350s how they feel about that now and the current value of their cars. They took a bath if they hung on to them. I guess that gets to a more philosophical/personal discussion. I agree that market forces dictate what is worth what. But, there are definitely bubbles and things really aren't worth what you paid for them. Look at the the housing/stock market bubbles in the past and currently that are about to pop again. Just like my GT350(R) example. I also agree the ZL1/ZLE are overpriced at MSRP, luckily the market worked in my favor there and it was adjusted accordingly so I got a great deal.

I really really don't get the Randy thing here other than you know what. I also really really hope Billy responds with his thoughts as that is the only one some here might listen to. A bunch of people on the BMW forums thought the same thing about Cammisa because he hated the M3/4.

Agreed, I like the Hellcats for what they are and it would be a lot of fun to own one for a fun commuter/day trip car etc.
 

martinjlm

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ZLE has been out a few years did they have an ADM when it first came out? I can tell you here in New England most dealers will not come down much off MSRP on a ZL1 or ZLE. $3-5K is the typical discount. I have never seen once priced below 15% off MSRP here and definitely not 25%+ like some deals on Corvettes.
There may have been a few here and there. Historically, GM gets pretty aggressive with dealers that drop ADM on Camaros and Corvettes. Not sure about Escalades, but it may be the case there, too.
 

MaskedRacerX

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To that end, I wonder if the GT500 would be selling as well if it didn't have the mystical Shelby name affixed to it....
Yeah, it was another thread where I was ruminating about having a GT500 and a GT500 Shelby Edition, the latter has the extra swap, snake logos, limited production (i.e., "collectible"), maybe a unique color or two, a Shelby Edition wing or some such shit - the former loses the extra cost for the Shelby branding, drops some color options, has no artificial production limits. People get a $70K loaded base model, at MSRP, other folks drop $85K on the same car, get snakes, bags, swag, a plaque with a number on it, in "Shelby Super Metallic Blue", and are happy.
 

Strokerswild

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Yeah, it was another thread where I was ruminating about having a GT500 and a GT500 Shelby Edition, the latter has the extra swap, snake logos, limited production (i.e., "collectible"), maybe a unique color or two, a Shelby Edition wing or some such shit - the former loses the extra cost for the Shelby branding, drops some color options, has no artificial production limits. People get a $70K loaded base model, at MSRP, other folks drop $85K on the same car, get snakes, bags, swag, a plaque with a number on it, in "Shelby Super Metallic Blue", and are happy.
Indeed. Or even drop the GT500 moniker too and come up with a new performance icon for the non-Shelby iteration.

I bought into the Shelby hype when I bought my '07. Turns out it really wasn't all that great a car, and I never really fell in love with it after the honeymoon. Beyond license-risking straight line fun, I liked my '09 Bullitt better as a whole.

Granted, I think the new one is 50X the car my '07 was, and a decade and a half of progress will do that. But that name has a ridiculous amount of cachet to it, yet I personally don't put that much significance on it since he had nothing to do with it. Great marketing for Ford, though, hard to beat, and it's working.
 
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