E85 Daily??

[Angrey]

Fun fact…the factory f150 flex logic oil-life usage rate doubles when on e85.

What do you suppose the logic is there?

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[tdstuart]

E85 is 51%-83% by law. They're not allowed to call it E85 if it's outside of that.

Don’t know about this being accurate in every state. Here in AZ we will have pumps labeled e85 that can give 98% ethanol and some that can give high 40%. We usually see 54%, 85%, and 98%.

 

[tdstuart]

Like others have stated for the most part it should be fine. Fuel pumps may give out earlier due to having to flow more and e85 being more damaging to fuel systems.

I think you may also experience faster tensioner arm wear. They are plastic. I wouldn’t worry about it a ton but maybe replace after 75-100k miles. Just a guess honestly.

 

[Angrey]

Don’t know about this being accurate in every state. Here in AZ we will have pumps labeled e85 that can give 98% ethanol and some that can give high 40%. We usually see 54%, 85%, and 98%.

You'd have to show me. In order to comply with the EPA and FFV stuff, it's all standardized (across the 50 states) so "flex fuel" vehicles are all to run on "E85" which has the little sticker at each and every pump that disclaims it's between 51%-83%.

Not sure if it's "Flex Fuel" that communicates the compliance with the ASTM or "E85" but I know that the entire Flex Fuel system was crafted such that vehicles come from the OEM's able to run 51-83 and as a result, all the pumps labeled as such must comply.

https://www.astm.org/d5798-21.html

 

[tdstuart]

You'd have to show me. In order to comply with the EPA and FFV stuff, it's all standardized (across the 50 states) so "flex fuel" vehicles are all to run on "E85" which has the little sticker at each and every pump that disclaims it's between 51%-83%.

Not sure if it's "Flex Fuel" that communicates the compliance with the ASTM or "E85" but I know that the entire Flex Fuel system was crafted such that vehicles come from the OEM's able to run 51-83 and as a result, all the pumps labeled as such must comply.

https://www.astm.org/d5798-21.html

Testing is a pain haha but here is a screenshot of someone who tested a station today. I have personally tested this station multiple times and they consistently have 95+ E%. Usually it’s 98% and the other 2% is additives so no one drinks it.

 

[tdstuart]

You'd have to show me. In order to comply with the EPA and FFV stuff, it's all standardized (across the 50 states) so "flex fuel" vehicles are all to run on "E85" which has the little sticker at each and every pump that disclaims it's between 51%-83%.

Not sure if it's "Flex Fuel" that communicates the compliance with the ASTM or "E85" but I know that the entire Flex Fuel system was crafted such that vehicles come from the OEM's able to run 51-83 and as a result, all the pumps labeled as such must comply.

https://www.astm.org/d5798-21.html

Black pump is new pump. Included a pic of the old pump. Same ethanol content for both they just recently got a new pump

 

[Angrey]

Well again, if you're not letting the tube settle properly, it's going to read SIGNIFICANTLY higher than the true content.

And that little E85 logo, in order to comply it has to follow the ASTM, so something isn't right. Either you're testing incorrectly or they're truly selling "E85" with content outside the ASTM standard.

Are they simply selling the "race fuel" through the E85 nozzle?

 

[tdstuart]

Well again, if you're not letting the tube settle properly, it's going to read SIGNIFICANTLY higher than the true content.

And that little E85 logo, in order to comply it has to follow the ASTM, so something isn't right. Either you're testing incorrectly or they're truly selling "E85" with content outside the ASTM standard.

Are they simply selling the "race fuel" through the E85 nozzle?

I’ve tested many stations. It’s 98%. Me and about 100 other people have confirmed. You can tell instantly it has a really high ethanol content compared to normal e85. I’ve let it sit 20+min before.

There is another station that sells 90%+ ethanol and they have it labeled as “premium e85”. They also have another regular e85 pump that’s in the 80-85% range.

And no they have a separate pump for the 100 octane fuel. It’s just the same terminal.

 

[engineermike]

.. why the tuners can't just replicate the warm start conditions on the cold start tables.

It wouldn’t run at all if they did that. Ethanol in the cold acts vastly different from gasoline due to the lack of light-ends, which adversely affects cold starts. The stock f150 injects about 3x as much e85 during cold start vs gasoline. They also bias less gdi blend. There are also tables called open loop “lost fuel” that are grossly different for e85, some of which can’t even be accessed in hptuners.

I spent about 4 hours with my previous tuner (who tunes Chevys and Dodges as well) and he was explaining to me that the Ford idle strategies are way WAY too complicated and with GM you can simply fix a couple of variables and stabilize it very easily.

The ford idle control is…interesting. But it makes sense once you figure out what it’s doing and why.

This is what I believe to be true based on logging and tuning I’ve done: the ford logic totals up the idle torque required to overcome engine friction, pumping losses, accessory losses, and then adds “reserve” torque (extra it shouldn’t need). It looks up what airflow is needed to achieve this torque and sends the throttle blade to an angle to supply enough air to achieve it. Because of the reserve torque, it’s too much air, so timing retard is used to bring the idle speed down to target. This is why you see idle spark of only 5-15 deg. The spark timing is controlled by a PID feedback loop targeting no error vs commanded idle speed. The throttle angle doesn’t actually control idle speed directly unless the engine starts to stall, where stall-saver logic kicks in.

Then you throw CSER into the mix, which is where they retard the timing even more to light off the cats when cold. For CSER, I believe it adds additional idle torque, which demands more air and even less timing. Which is why they’re so loud for the first 20-30 seconds during cold start.

 

[engineermike]

What do you suppose the logic is there?

My guess is the higher moisture content in the exhaust that makes its way into the oil, resulting in higher acidity:

 

[robvas]

Winter blend e85 is e50 in mose/most places, right? Helps it start better.

even so I know we had a bunch of trucks at work that wouldn't start when it was say 15 degrees out, that was the last time they ever used e85 in them

 

[robvas]

My guess is the higher moisture content in the exhaust that makes its way into the oil, resulting in higher acidity:

MotoIQ did a video about an e85 engine that had a lot of short trips etc

 

[Angrey]

It wouldn’t run at all if they did that. Ethanol in the cold acts vastly different from gasoline due to the lack of light-ends, which adversely affects cold starts. The stock f150 injects about 3x as much e85 during cold start vs gasoline. They also bias less gdi blend. There are also tables called open loop “lost fuel” that are grossly different for e85, some of which can’t even be accessed in hptuners.



The ford idle control is…interesting. But it makes sense once you figure out what it’s doing and why.

This is what I believe to be true based on logging and tuning I’ve done: the ford logic totals up the idle torque required to overcome engine friction, pumping losses, accessory losses, and then adds “reserve” torque (extra it shouldn’t need). It looks up what airflow is needed to achieve this torque and sends the throttle blade to an angle to supply enough air to achieve it. Because of the reserve torque, it’s too much air, so timing retard is used to bring the idle speed down to target. This is why you see idle spark of only 5-15 deg. The spark timing is controlled by a PID feedback loop targeting no error vs commanded idle speed. The throttle angle doesn’t actually control idle speed directly unless the engine starts to stall, where stall-saver logic kicks in.

Then you throw CSER into the mix, which is where they retard the timing even more to light off the cats when cold. For CSER, I believe it adds additional idle torque, which demands more air and even less timing. Which is why they’re so loud for the first 20-30 seconds during cold start.

It all works with mild setups, but the throttle adjustment when it stumbles is where it starts to fight itself and if you start with virtually no blade angle, it goes into a conflict loop with the timing trying to maintain target idle rpm, but on a large TB blade if you set the min even a micron more the idle can't reside at low (800 rpm) target even choking fuel and spark. In the end, we tried to set the target a little higher and we could get it pretty well smoothed out under load (A/C on) but no A/C it was still grumpy.

At any rate, the idle now is silky smooth and it's not continuously trying to fight itself to reach steady state. Something about the MOTEC/Standalone allows for a different approach. Probably not as much of a challenge on mild builds but on a small pulley, big TB it was a problem to ever get it to replicate a stock idle quality.

 

[Angrey]

My guess is the higher moisture content in the exhaust that makes its way into the oil, resulting in higher acidity:

I misread your original post. Now i understand. I misread that you were saying it doubles the oil life. (which I thought would be curious and counterintuitive to this whole discussion).

 

[Biggus Dickus]

Winter blend e85 is e50 in mose/most places, right? Helps it start better.

Not in CA 85%+ year round - different though for cold climes

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