Diagnosing Cam Phaser issues with data logs

[ronnyek42]

Greetings...
I cant shake this feeling that I've still got something wrong with cam phasers or vct solenoids. I just did all 4 new vct solenoids about 1mo ago, and it seemed to run quite a bit better after that for like 50mi.

I logged pids for actual vs desired, and see weird stuff with exhaust cams, particularly on bank 2. This was just revving and i plan to do proper data log with real load, but oil pressure is good, oil levels are good... car is just all over the place. I've had engine die on me only once, but sometimes it runs incredibly, sometimes it runs not so great and the exhaust note sounds... different.

For intake desired vs actuals

Does anyone know what this should look like on a properly running car? Are there additional pids that would be helpful to log?

My car is a 2018, and the "ford performance high strength solenoids" are said to not fit, so I just went with what seemed like the latest part numbers for both intake/exhaust solenoids.

HL3Z6M280A - exhaust vct
BR3Z6M280E - intake vct

here are the parameters I was logging in datazap
https://datazap.me/u/ronnyek/log-1738907417?log=1&data=

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[NGOT8R]

With bank 2 being the driver’s side, I wonder if it’s possible that the secondary tensioner is not providing adequate tension and creating a timing issue for you? There are a couple of companies out there that make aftermarket flip tensioner brackets which are supposed to move the tension to the proper side of the secondary chain and eliminate this issue.

Read the explanation here in this product description.

https://www.modularmotorsportsracing.com/cart/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=1049

 

[raptor17GT]

i had bank 2 exhaust cam timing issues, replaced chains / VCTs / phasers and tensioners. Working ok now. Both inlet cams should be on similar timing to each other and both exhaust cams should be similar to each other. My mechanic did say the exhaust cam timing was more active and revving at standstill was easy to activate the timing whereas the inlet cam timing seemed to be further up the rev range (i dont have rpm ranges for examples)

OP do you have any error codes using Forscan or another proper reader?

 

[ronnyek42]

OP do you have any error codes using Forscan or another proper reader?

No, I've scanned with forscan and several of my other tools... Thinktool mini and other full service readers... And no codes, just symptoms.

I get that it's hard to know if there is anything truly wrong without codes... But as things are now, I notice the I consistencies in how it runs and it makes it far less enjoyable to drive when it sometimes runs amazing and sometimes runs far less amazing.

I got 13k mi on it over the course of 5yr (but I do drive it regularly, just mostly weekend drives or short trips across town). I don't want to wait for a failure and hoped to find a way to truly diagnose. Problems could be something else entirely, but I suspect cam phaser or timing related. It's already had a phaser replaced in that time, and even though I'm not excited about it, I was just gonna tear it apart and go all new everything (phasers, solenoids, chains, tensioners). I just want it to run like it's supposed to from the factory.

I'm actually not confident Ford has fixed anything with phasers, and feel like that's probably the issue... And extremely frustrated I'll be inevitably tearing it back apart later to do this again. I've considered just getting a s650, but suspect they all still have the problems still.

 

[raptor17GT]

yeah i noticed the difference in running as well so I figured something was wrong when I ran two tanks of pretty good fuel through it and it was still missing / falling flat when applying throttle. We'd changed a VCT unit as well, made no difference so on advice of folks and the mechanic just changed everything as you have described. Its just too involved to change one thing at a time so while you are in there change the lot.

 

[ronnyek42]

Well and I've contemplated billet oil pump gears in case I decide to go supercharged. I have the tools and the skills... I just don't want to be doing this again in short order in the even there are still problems with the design or whatever causes this.

 

[NGOT8R]

Well and I've contemplated billet oil pump gears in case I decide to go supercharged. I have the tools and the skills... I just don't want to be doing this again in short order in the even there are still problems with the design or whatever causes this.

That’s a good plan while you’re in there.

 

[ronnyek42]

With bank 2 being the driver’s side, I wonder if it’s possible that the secondary tensioner is not providing adequate tension and creating a timing issue for you? There are a couple of companies out there that make aftermarket flip tensioner brackets which are supposed to move the tension to the proper side of the secondary chain and eliminate this issue.

Read the explanation here in this product description.

https://www.modularmotorsportsracing.com/cart/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=1049

I wish I could see a diagram of what this was trying to fix. I can read and understand how it flips tensioner upside down and tensions "from the other side"

This is literally the first time I've ever seen this product mentioned... It seems in intake cam vs desired... Bank 2 seemed to be furthest off...

I thought most of the problems with that stuff was because of hpfp running off cam affected cam timing ever so slightly or something...

 

[engineermike]

The log seems to be missing engine rpm and exhaust phaser duty cycle, plus the data rate is pretty bad. But based on that, yes, the bank 2 cam angle appears to be not tracking well. Duty cycle and VCT schedule parameters would tell more to ensure the logic is actually is in the correct mode and trying to correct it.

 

[ronnyek42]

The log seems to be missing engine rpm and exhaust phaser duty cycle, plus the data rate is pretty bad. But based on that, yes, the bank 2 cam angle appears to be not tracking well. Duty cycle and VCT schedule parameters would tell more to ensure the logic is actually is in the correct mode and trying to correct it.

I'll add those... What are the metrics here that are not necessary?

I'm using a obdlink MX+ which is capable of high speed and CAN stuff... This data logged by the "obdlink" app which I feel like is easier to setup. It's sampling every 100ms and I can try to lower that sampling rate... But I imagine I should be logging with as few parameters as possible.

 

[K4fxd]

But I imagine I should be logging with as few parameters as possible.

This

 

[engineermike]

If you focus on exhaust:

rpm
time
exhaust desired angle
exhaust actual angle bank 1
exhaust actual angle bank 2
exhaust phaser duty cycle bank 1
exhaust phaser duty cycle bank 2
vct schedule
oil pressure

Change it to 10 ms and see how it does. Maybe log it through a few revs and see what happens.

 

[ronnyek42]

Sounds good... I mean I am still not opposed to doing everything... But it would nice to validate with data that there is SOMETHING wrong in vct/phasers. I want it to run like new, and with as few mi on the car... I feel like it should. It's barely broken in

 

[ronnyek42]

If you focus on exhaust:

rpm
time
exhaust desired angle
exhaust actual angle bank 1
exhaust actual angle bank 2
exhaust phaser duty cycle bank 1
exhaust phaser duty cycle bank 2
vct schedule
oil pressure

Change it to 10 ms and see how it does. Maybe log it through a few revs and see what happens.

In this case, what is vct schedule? I don't see anything in pids...

Is it vct status (open/closed loop)? There is also a "status" pid for each cam

Also, for intake stuff... Can anyone explain why it almost seems like bank 1 in the graph is significantly above desired and bank 2 is below or vice versa? It almost seems like something is working the opposite way it should

 

[engineermike]

In this case, what is vct schedule? I don't see anything in pids...

The VCT system has several possible schedules it can use, including emissions reduction, optimum stability, fuel economy, drivability, optimum power, and disabled.

Also, for intake stuff... Can anyone explain why it almost seems like bank 1 in the graph is significantly above desired and bank 2 is below or vice versa? It almost seems like something is working the opposite way it should

To be honest, that dataset and format will be really hard to draw conclusions from. HPT VCMScanner is much better for this kind of thing. Based on the data, the intake didn't look that bad like the exhaust did.

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