Cracked Plug Insulator

[KrisR]

Well, using a remote tune by someone who doesn't look at data logs when the potential exists seems asinine. I wouldn't do it.

'Here, use this tune. Should be fine. Let'er buck'.

No.

Just my opinion. You seem like a smart guy. There are plenty of tuners that are willing to read what the car is doing via data log to ensure the tune is safe and effective. Why wouldn't you choose that if it's available?

Sponsored

 

[TheLion]

Well, using a remote tune by someone who doesn't look at data logs when the potential exists seems asinine. I wouldn't do it.

'Here, use this tune. Should be fine. Let'er buck'.

No.

Then all OE PCM software is asinine by that same reasoning...Ford, GM, Dodge, Honda, Toyoda, Acura, BMW, Mercedes etc...none of them could possibly know what they are doing because they come with the same PCM software on each car...or could it be that the software is self adapting and will optimize parameters to maximize power and efficiency within the limits set by the test engineers and design engineers?

Your making an assumption that performance PCM software has to be tuned to the specific vehicle, on that specific day, on that specific fuel...or you could do it the OE way and use a test mule which is the same as the cars it will go into, create tables and adaptive software that learns the optimal parameters and will also continuously adjust for changes in environment, fuel etc.

Yes, if you want to set records you tune on a dyno and make little adjustments / tweaks to squeeze every last fraction of a watt of energy out of that particular car, that's the way it has to be done if that's your goal because no two cars of the same make and model are literally identical. However they are close enough that a small margin of safety allows OE like performance software.

There are no mass production performance cars that I am aware of where each car is tuned on a dyno and then sold to the customer. Maybe custom hand built cars, but not mass production, including cars like the Corvetts, GT350's etc. These cars are also are required to operate reliably over a vast range of environments and have been tested in them. Has your tuner tested you car at 0 degrees? How about 95, how about at various humidity levels? How about uphill with a full cargo load? How do you know you won't have issues? The customer isn't the guinea pig, their test cars are.

I'm not suggesting there's no value in dyno tuning a car, but it's not the end all be all solution you think it is. Each methodology has limitations, I chose the more OE like route as I wanted less risk. Jumping to conclusions and calling Livernois (and also Ford Performance as the do the same thing) asinine is well...asinine :headbonk:

 

[TheLion]

Just wanted to follow up with a plug comparison as an FYI for anyone running or wanting to run Brisk plugs:

Left is the RR14YS after about 5k miles on them (most of it tuned), middle is the OE plugs with about 1500 miles on them with stock tune and then about 250 miles on them with 93 (while I waited for the RR14S to arrive). Right is the NEW RR14S plugs with 0 miles on them.

Bore scope (not greatest quality as it's a cheap $20 USB one) of #4 cylinder which had the plug that cracked the insulator. No signs of pitting which would be an indicator of severe detonation / knock.

Note the yellow discoloration of the RR14YS plugs while the OE plugs did not exhibit any discoloration. Both sets indicate a very clean burning engine, but the RR14YS were running too hot. The combination of heat and greater projection is what caused knock which damaged the plug. The Knock was not severe enough to be audible, so it was fairly mild.

 

[Bennington]

When did you run 12s? :lol:

You did not answer the question.....

 

[TheLion]

You did not answer the question.....

I haven't been to the strip yet. I said I wanted to built a 12 second street car. I have to prove it can run in the 12's next, but I don't want to go to the strip with 9k miles on the factory oil fill and until I'm fully comfortable the car is running as it should...hoping I get to 10k before weather gets too cold. Part of the problem is I'm new to TDI engines, familiar with big NA V8's, V6's and 4 bangers, but TDI 4's are a whole new animal. I'm not always sure what's normal and not normal so I"m at this point very cautious.

 

[speedfrk]

I haven't been to the strip yet. I said I wanted to built a 12 second street car. I have to prove it can run in the 12's next, but I don't want to go to the strip with 9k miles on the factory oil fill and until I'm fully comfortable the car is running as it should...hoping I get to 10k before weather gets too cold. Part of the problem is I'm new to TDI engines, familiar with big NA V8's, V6's and 4 bangers, but TDI 4's are a whole new animal. I'm not always sure what's normal and not normal so I"m at this point very cautious.

Geez, all the stuff you've done to your car and you haven't bothered to change the oil yet? That's nuts.

 

[Chef jpd]

Their software is more OE like as opposed to being a one up optimization that's so specific it's only reliable on your particular car. Certainly it is tailored for specific modifications, such as cooling, intake, down pipes etc. and they will update for free if you make a change, but they are not tweaking tables etc.

.

If they are not tweaking tables, how are they making adjustments to your tune?

I think Adam would have a comment, but he does not like to piss on other tuners.

 

[TheLion]

If they are not tweaking tables, how are they making adjustments to your tune?

I think Adam would have a comment, but he does not like to piss on other tuners.

Context context context...they are not adjusting tables on the fly on your car to squeeze out a few extra HP. How many times have you seen "help, please, adjust my tune I'm having x problem". Reason? Because it wasn't tested over the range of conditions the car may actually see, it was only tested on that particular day at that particular temp on that particular tank of fuel.... A few dyno runs and adjustments is not adequate to determine reliability over a broad range of variables, temperature, humidity, fuel additives, actual octane ratings, passenger loads etc...it works for racing as that's what your trying to do, squeeze the most power out on that particular day, on that particular tank of fuel etc.

That's what I was getting at. But the trade off is less power as you need a margin to soak up all of those variables (there is some ability to self adjust, but it's only to a degree). It's just that simple, one method is not better than the other, just targeted at different applications.

I did do a data log from last night on the 93 tune and filtered out all the highest boost records and as far as I can tell looks good, I think I'm just becoming paranoid about normal behavior (being my first TDI car, had V8's, V6 and 4's but all NA):

CATTMP CLNT RPM KS1 KS2 OAR TMG BST
55:16.3 1018.04 163.4 3912.25 302 250 -0.61 8.5 16.24
55:24.2 1080.86 152.6 3780 371 261 -0.61 6.5 16.97
55:24.7 1080.86 152.6 4080.5 486 257 -0.61 5 19.87
56:31.3 992.48 159.8 3763.25 333 230 -0.61 1 18.27
56:31.8 992.48 159.8 4081.75 372 318 -0.61 3 18.56
56:32.4 1045.04 159.8 4531 398 340 -0.61 5 18.85
56:32.9 1045.04 159.8 4895.25 256 129 -0.61 7.5 19.44
56:43.4 1119.02 152.6 2945.5 402 210 -0.61 7 16.82
56:43.9 1119.02 152.6 3214.5 468 240 -0.61 8.5 17.26
56:44.5 1119.02 152.6 3360 481 262 -0.61 8.5 18.13
56:45.2 1141.52 152.6 3543 549 274 -0.61 8 18.27
56:45.8 1141.52 152.6 3737.5 421 310 -0.61 4.5 19
59:09.1 1178.78 163.4 3279.5 458 249 -0.61 6 17.98
59:09.7 1194.26 163.4 3433.5 547 272 -0.61 7 19.14
59:10.2 1194.26 163.4 3620.5 491 278 -0.61 7.5 18.56
59:10.8 1194.26 163.4 3763 388 321 -0.61 5 19.58
59:11.6 1206.14 165.2 3909.5 113 74 -0.61 6.5 16.68
59:55.3 1186.7 163.4 6179.5 384 266 -0.61 9.5 17.98
59:57.6 1219.82 158 4963 313 346 -0.61 5 16.53
59:58.1 1219.82 158 5512.75 486 411 -0.61 9.5 20.45
59:58.7 1261.04 154.4 5580.75 176 107 -0.61 21.5 20.6
01:29.5 1168.88 161.6 5359.5 426 426 -0.61 11 17.69
01:30.1 1168.88 161.6 6100 394 367 -0.61 11 17.26
01:30.5 1168.88 161.6 6702.25 173 141 -0.61 10 18.13
01:32.5 1195.7 156.2 5017.5 411 442 -0.61 8.5 19
01:32.9 1242.68 152.6 5387.5 473 414 -0.61 9 17.84
01:33.3 1242.68 152.6 5657.5 472 389 -0.61 10 20.74

 

[Turbong]

I'm not really sure I buy into the temperature change theory. Porcelain is tougher than that. Having said that though, I treat these platinum plugs like fragile light bulbs. It seems in the past few years or so, there's been lots of problems with cracked insulators. It seems you've already taken into consideration the common things.

I've read enough of your posts to think you'd know if it was detonation which would be my first guess.

My second guess would be over-torquing but 13 lb ft is good, I use 12 lb ft.

The next thought would be under-torquing that seems to be a problem mostly from people that don't use a torque wrench though.

Next would be careless install, people drop the plugs into the hole then maybe don't have the wrench and the correct angle when installing. I lower the plugs in using a 3/8" fuel line and start turning them in that way.

I would also consider shipping and handling. I've never used Brisk although heard plenty of good about them. Are they packaged/protected well?

Then finally would be heat range. At 1 step colder, I think you would be good, have you asked LMS? Maybe 2 steps is needed?

If all seems good, I would just replace the set and watch. It may simply have been a hairline crack when you installed it or defective.

Is is 12ft lbs for all plug brands including stock plugs? I saw another post for NGK's I could of sworn it said 17ft lbs

 

[tw557]

What hardware do you use for the data logging. I would really like to do this also.

 

[tittermary]

Then all OE PCM software is asinine by that same reasoning...Ford, GM, Dodge, Honda, Toyoda, Acura, BMW, Mercedes etc...none of them could possibly know what they are doing because they come with the same PCM software on each car...or could it be that the software is self adapting and will optimize parameters to maximize power and efficiency within the limits set by the test engineers and design engineers?

Your making an assumption that performance PCM software has to be tuned to the specific vehicle, on that specific day, on that specific fuel...or you could do it the OE way and use a test mule which is the same as the cars it will go into, create tables and adaptive software that learns the optimal parameters and will also continuously adjust for changes in environment, fuel etc.

Yes, if you want to set records you tune on a dyno and make little adjustments / tweaks to squeeze every last fraction of a watt of energy out of that particular car, that's the way it has to be done if that's your goal because no two cars of the same make and model are literally identical. However they are close enough that a small margin of safety allows OE like performance software.

There are no mass production performance cars that I am aware of where each car is tuned on a dyno and then sold to the customer. Maybe custom hand built cars, but not mass production, including cars like the Corvetts, GT350's etc. These cars are also are required to operate reliably over a vast range of environments and have been tested in them. Has your tuner tested you car at 0 degrees? How about 95, how about at various humidity levels? How about uphill with a full cargo load? How do you know you won't have issues? The customer isn't the guinea pig, their test cars are.

I'm not suggesting there's no value in dyno tuning a car, but it's not the end all be all solution you think it is. Each methodology has limitations, I chose the more OE like route as I wanted less risk. Jumping to conclusions and calling Livernois (and also Ford Performance as the do the same thing) asinine is well...asinine :headbonk:

yeah for stock or close to stock performance this is fine, once a person starts to try and run some decent times, ehh not so much.....

Sponsored