Cracked Plug Insulator

[TEXAS HEAT]

Here's what I got from Brisk on their latest response:



According to them my particular engine is very clean burning, but if you notice there is a yellowish discoloration of the ceramic, aka heat discoloration. I asked them about the RR12S, but I'm guessing they will reply those are likely too cold.

BTW, I bent the ground electrode back to let the insulator slide out, it didn't come out of the engine like that. All three photos are of the same plug, in one photo I tipped plug up so the insulator slide back up and I could see the electrode. The other I tipped it down so the insulator slid back down. Then I pried the ground electrode up so I could see down inside the plug to see if I had blow out.

The knock event was certainly severe enough to crack the insulator that's for sure. BTW, anyone else have a bit of turbo whine at higher rpm? I noticed that after all this happened, but the real question is, was it already there and I'm just now noticing or did it occur after the knock event (remember I drove the car 30 some miles to get home with the misfire under light throttle).

My concern would be cooking the turbo or catalyst due to the un-burnt fuel from cylinder 4 feeding through the turbo and catalyst. The slight whine is about the only thing I've noticed, but only seems to occur at mid range and under light load (aka normal driving). Dead silent cruising at 2500 rpm in 6th, at idle, high rpm and WOT.

My oil is deffinately getting dirty (dark brown, but not black), 8200 miles now on the factory fill, yah yah yah, some of you will say I'm crazy, but I want those bearings / cams to be broken in.

Oil indicator still seems on par for a 10k change (says 20%), user manual doesn't call for first change until 10k or oil light and I have upgraded cooling. Also I've only used about a 1/2 quart, all of which pretty much ended up in the UPR can. Currently the oil level is right at the top of the hatch.

Honestly @TheLion , I think you likely came across some less than good premium gas that lead to the detonation event that damaged your plug. If you scoped your cylinders and all looked good, I would think you're ok and just need to get a new set of plugs. NGK or even another set of the Brisk.

Getting crappy fuel unfortunately does happen from time to time which is why it's important to get your fuel from as few places as possible. If you have to fuel up at a location that you've never used, I would flash the 91 tune just to be safe until you can fuel up at your regular supplier.

I'm not going to knock your tuning choice because LMS has a solid reputation, but their tuning device leaves something to be desired.

Unknowingly having a detonation event that causes a plug fracture that could've possibly been prevented if you had an onboard monitoring device. It will definitely give you a heads up when you do get the occasional bad tank of gas before it leads to a component failure. Having this knowledge sooner rather than later is advantageous.

IMHO, I don't think the "set it and forget it" mentality applies with today's advanced turbocharged engines, especially when we're increasing cylinder pressures, advancing timing and running leaner a/f ratios in an attempt to maximize performance. We need to be aware of what's going on inside of our engines at all times, which is what being able to live monitor is all about.

FWIW, I changed my oil at 7000 miles and have not experienced any oil consumption issues. I'm at 11k miles now and have only drained .5oz from my CC and oil level still indicates full on the dipstick.

:cheers:

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[Juben]

TEXAS HEAT is right. You don't want to run the 12S' on a mildly modified motor. They're too cold and will eventually begin to foul out. I've ran them with both E30 and 93. The carbon build-up is even more accelerated on E30 with the 12S'.

For a bolt-on car with the stock turbo, I'd run the RR14S. For cars that are heavily modified, e.g. big turbos and built engines, I'd run the RR12S.

 

[TheLion]

TEXAS HEAT is right. You don't want to run the 12S' on a mildly modified motor. They're too cold and will eventually begin to foul out. I've ran them with both E30 and 93. The carbon build-up is even more accelerated on E30 with the 12S'.

For a bolt-on car with the stock turbo, I'd run the RR14S. For cars that are heavily modified, e.g. big turbos and built engines, I'd run the RR12S.

I spoke to Brisk about this and your correct, the RR14S is the correct plug for this level of modification. According to them, the projected tip equates to about a half of a heat range hotter.

Sadly this whole thing was simply because I never thought to re-examine the plugs after using the tune...live and learn! I honestly don't think the fuel was solely responsible, even if it was bit sub-par, running a colder plug is equivalent to pulling timing, for which there is a good possibility I would never have blown a plug. Yes, running the RR14S with a 91 tune while using 93 would be pretty much bullet proof, that's probably why Ford Performance tunes to 91 as well. I may still go that route, but I really like the 93, it's just a more refined version of the 91, more edge, little better response etc.

I do have data logging capability, I have Torque Pro and OBDIILink MX. I just set it up to log OAR, CAT, RPM, KS1 and KS2 (not sure how to interpret those values though) and a few other parameters. I'll monitor it for a bit and see how it goes.

 

[TheLion]

Just wanted to provide a last update on the cracked plug resolution and some information that may be helpful. Some of you may know this, some of you may not. Here was the final response from Brisk concerning how recessing the electrode affects the heat range:

There will be no long term effect on the piston as long as you correct the problem now. Over time if the knock were to continue to occur then yes it would gradually make the piston weaker. But at this time the severity is not there.

Too cold of a heat range can cause plugs to build up carbon deposits you are correct, but it is safer to start cold and work up to a happy heat range.

As far as the RR14YS and RR14S heat range goes, moving from a projected center electrode to a non-projected center electrode essentially is a half of a heat range colder. In reality the insulator construction inside the shell is the same which is what determines a spark plugs heat range (see below image) and it has essentially the same capacitance for heat. Recessing the tip with a non-projected configuration manipulates the spark position in the combustion chamber, this would be similar to retardation of timing essentially, when timing is too advanced you see issues like knock and precisely why you were occurring knock with the projected tip, every tune is different and I'm sure there were some adjustments within the map to the timing.

[image]

So the red line across all 5 insulators is where the spark plug insulator makes contact with the shell and starts the dissipation through the shell into the head and so on.... so the portion of insulator below that line is what we call the "insulator nose" as you can see its smaller in diameter so it has an air gap in between the spark plug shell and the insulator, this allows the flame to travel further down into the shell which constitutes a hotter heat range. So the longer the insulator nose the hotter the plug.

There is a lot of valuable information about this on our website in these links:

http://www.briskusa.com/basic_theory_spark_plug_operation

http://www.briskusa.com/spark_gap_location_design

http://www.briskusa.com/spark_plug_cross_reference_heat_range_chart

The RR14YS would still be considered 1 heat range colder than factory plug but due to the projection combined with the power adding modifications it kinda of threw everything out of proportion in the sense that we would not have recommended that had we known there was more mods coming.

 

[Cobra Jet]

So I have 2 questions:

The one pic where you show what I believe is the damaged plug, from the angle the pic was taken, it looks like the insulator is completely gone.

1) Is the insulator completely gone as the pic shows?
2) Did the insulator fall off into the cylinder or did you remove it after the plug was pulled?

Thanks for further info.

 

[TheLion]

So I have 2 questions:

The one pic where you show what I believe is the damaged plug, from the angle the pic was taken, it looks like the insulator is completely gone.

1) Is the insulator completely gone as the pic shows?
2) Did the insulator fall off into the cylinder or did you remove it after the plug was pulled?

Thanks for further info.

All 3 pictures I posted are of the same plug actually. In on pic I tipped the plug up side down to slide the insulator back up just to see the electrode condition. In another pic I tipped it right side up so the insulator slid down as I came out of the car. In a 3rd pic I bent back the grounding strap with a pliers and slid the insulator off.

Livernois said back in the early 2000's they had issues with Brisk plugs "inexplicably" cracking insulators. They had that issue only with the Brisk plugs, so they switched to Denso.

Brisk believes this was knock (detonation is severe or high intensity knock) caused by the improper application of the RR14YS when a RR14S plug should have been used.

The Y denotes it's a projected tip which effectively advances timing as the plug is more exposed directly to the fuel / air mixture. How much timing I don't know, but I can understand the reasoning (higher exposure allows for a more rapid flame front as more fuel / air molecules are ignited simultaneously from the spark).

It also means the plug will run hotter. A projected tip equates to roughly 10~25C increase in temp or about 1/2 a heat range. I'm curious however if the PCM should have compensated for the increase in timing as it's a closed loop system.

Then again some closed loop systems, especially when they are controlled by a micro controller, have open loop elements (certain factors which are assumed constant). I'm wondering if the PCM assumes the time lag between the time it starts to charge the coil and the time it expects the actual ignition to occur is adaptable or fixed...I contacted LMS about that question, but I'm not sure they will give that much detail. From their perspective they've had known problems with Brisk plugs in the past when OE and Densos worked fine in their shop cars and were never able to resolve it (same issue, the insulators would crack and slide down over the electrode).

We may never know 100% the reason why but according to Livernois the OE plugs are "more than adequate" for their PCM software, so they should be a safe bet to fall back on (which is what I have in there now).

 

[Turbong]

All 3 pictures I posted are of the same plug actually. In on pic I tipped the plug up side down to slide the insulator back up just to see the electrode condition. In another pic I tipped it right side up so the insulator slid down as I came out of the car. In a 3rd pic I bent back the grounding strap with a pliers and slid the insulator off.

Livernois said back in the early 2000's they had issues with Brisk plugs "inexplicably" cracking insulators. They had that issue only with the Brisk plugs, so they switched to Denso.

Brisk believes this was knock (detonation is severe or high intensity knock) caused by the improper application of the RR14YS when a RR14S plug should have been used.

The Y denotes it's a projected tip which effectively advances timing as the plug is more exposed directly to the fuel / air mixture. How much timing I don't know, but I can understand the reasoning (higher exposure allows for a more rapid flame front as more fuel / air molecules are ignited simultaneously from the spark).

It also means the plug will run hotter. A projected tip equates to roughly 10~25C increase in temp or about 1/2 a heat range. I'm curious however if the PCM should have compensated for the increase in timing as it's a closed loop system.

Then again some closed loop systems, especially when they are controlled by a micro controller, have open loop elements (certain factors which are assumed constant). I'm wondering if the PCM assumes the time lag between the time it starts to charge the coil and the time it expects the actual ignition to occur is adaptable or fixed...I contacted LMS about that question, but I'm not sure they will give that much detail. From their perspective they've had known problems with Brisk plugs in the past when OE and Densos worked fine in their shop cars and were never able to resolve it (same issue, the insulators would crack and slide down over the electrode).

We may never know 100% the reason why but according to Livernois the OE plugs are "more than adequate" for their PCM software, so they should be a safe bet to fall back on (which is what I have in there now).

See this is why I'm not touching my motor, call me paranoid but putting the wrong plugs, or right plugs in the wrong conditions you could essentially destroy your motor and even worse pay out of your pocket cause you had some aftermarket plugs. There always so many variables and unknown that are not taken into account. People always think they know better than the engineers that built the motor, until they don't then your out of a motor with a huge bill on your hands.

 

[arghx7]

Why don't you put the stock plugs back in? You know, the ones that Ford spent hundreds if not thousands of hours running at WOT to test for durability

 

[TheLion]

Why don't you put the stock plugs back in? You know, the ones that Ford spent hundreds if not thousands of hours running at WOT to test for durability

I could, in fact I did, I ran the OE plugs for several hundred miles while waiting for the RR14S to arrive. However the OE plugs are not designed for optimal power, but durability and at stock power levels.

They spent all those hours testing those plugs at factory power levels because that's what provides the longest service interval and is the most economical choice for a stock car. The RR14S are less projected than OE and 1 step colder than OE, they provide more protection against knock in modified applications, however with Livernois the OE are adequate and would function without issue, but there's no harm in improvement. The RR14YS are more projected than OE, even though they are 1 step colder they are also absorbing more heat in my modified application due to the deeper chamber depth. The more deeply projected tip also effectively advances ignition, something I was not aware of until just recently when I really dug into the issue.

We can't blame Brisk or Livernois for my mistake. If you don't feel comfortable making alterations then don't, the reliability of the car as it comes from the factory is stellar. But at the same time, that factory car will get smoked in any performance test, be it auto cross, drag or track...you'll also get beat by a good WRX driver or Camaro V6 driver, even if by only a small amount.

I bought the car not because of what it was stock, but because of what I thought it could be, a reliable and economical 12 second street / strip / autocross car that would outperform a similarly modified WRX or Camaro V6 aka at the bolt on level.

The ONLY issue I've had during the entire time I've owned this car and made changes was a cracked plug insulator which is related to MY misapplication of plugs. Had I stayed with the OE plugs, I would not have had this issue. However I was very methodical in my choices of modifications and especially with the PCM software and it paid off. Instead of a blown engine, I only had to change the plugs. I even bore scoped the camber and the pistons are clean as a whistle, what I thought was pitting turned out to be white carbon deposits around the plug threads that fell in when I removed the plugs and put the bore scope in.

See when I started modding I was going to wait for the Ford Performance software. So initially I chose the RR14YS plugs knowing I would be running stock software for some time. However, my desire for more power got the better of me and I decided to go with a high performance PCM software after 30+ hours of research over several weeks, I ended up with Livernois.

I never bothered to re-examine the plugs. I figured if Livernois software was safe to run on a bone stock car, none of the modifications I did should have any negative impact. What I didn't realize at the time was that the RR14YS were more deeply projected than the OE (well, I saw they physically were, but wasn't aware of the correlation between depth and ignition advance and heat absorption) and would effectively run too hot on modified software even if they ran colder than OE on stock software.

The issue is now sorted out and I have achieved my goal. Other than a set of sway bars and Ford Performance CAI, I will leave the car as is. It's fast, smooth, consistent and lots of fun. I also still get 30+ on the highway and around 25~26 combined. I can even run the OE software reliably despite all of the modifications (why I will probably stay away from a down pipe upgrade, at least until the car is paid off). Now I can start doing some non critical mods (aka appearance such as brake caliper paint, spoiler etc).

 

[ypena02]

I could, in fact I did, I ran the OE plugs for several hundred miles while waiting for the RR14S to arrive. However the OE plugs are not designed for optimal power, but durability and at stock power levels.

They spent all those hours testing those plugs at factory power levels because that's what provides the longest service interval and is the most economical choice for a stock car. The RR14S are less projected than OE and 1 step colder than OE, they provide more protection against knock in modified applications, however with Livernois the OE are adequate and would function without issue, but there's no harm in improvement. The RR14YS are more projected than OE, even though they are 1 step colder they are also absorbing more heat in my modified application due to the deeper chamber depth. The more deeply projected tip also effectively advances ignition, something I was not aware of until just recently when I really dug into the issue.

We can't blame Brisk or Livernois for my mistake. If you don't feel comfortable making alterations then don't, the reliability of the car as it comes from the factory is stellar. But at the same time, that factory car will get smoked in any performance test, be it auto cross, drag or track...you'll also get beat by a good WRX driver or Camaro V6 driver, even if by only a small amount.

I bought the car not because of what it was stock, but because of what I thought it could be, a reliable and economical 12 second street / strip / autocross car that would outperform a similarly modified WRX or Camaro V6 aka at the bolt on level.

The ONLY issue I've had during the entire time I've owned this car and made changes was a cracked plug insulator which is related to MY misapplication of plugs. Had I stayed with the OE plugs, I would not have had this issue. However I was very methodical in my choices of modifications and especially with the PCM software and it paid off. Instead of a blown engine, I only had to change the plugs. I even bore scoped the camber and the pistons are clean as a whistle, what I thought was pitting turned out to be white carbon deposits around the plug threads that fell in when I removed the plugs and put the bore scope in.

See when I started modding I was going to wait for the Ford Performance software. So initially I chose the RR14YS plugs knowing I would be running stock software for some time. However, my desire for more power got the better of me and I decided to go with a high performance PCM software after 30+ hours of research over several weeks, I ended up with Livernois.

I never bothered to re-examine the plugs. I figured if Livernois software was safe to run on a bone stock car, none of the modifications I did should have any negative impact. What I didn't realize at the time was that the RR14YS were more deeply projected than the OE (well, I saw they physically were, but wasn't aware of the correlation between depth and ignition advance and heat absorption) and would effectively run too hot on modified software even if they ran colder than OE on stock software.

The issue is now sorted out and I have achieved my goal. Other than a set of sway bars and Ford Performance CAI, I will leave the car as is. It's fast, smooth, consistent and lots of fun. I also still get 30+ on the highway and around 25~26 combined. I can even run the OE software reliably despite all of the modifications (why I will probably stay away from a down pipe upgrade, at least until the car is paid off). Now I can start doing some non critical mods (aka appearance such as brake caliper paint, spoiler etc).

When did you run 12s? :lol:

 

[TheLion]

See this is why I'm not touching my motor, call me paranoid but putting the wrong plugs, or right plugs in the wrong conditions you could essentially destroy your motor and even worse pay out of your pocket cause you had some aftermarket plugs. There always so many variables and unknown that are not taken into account. People always think they know better than the engineers that built the motor, until they don't then your out of a motor with a huge bill on your hands.

I don't think it's a case of "people think they know better". It's case of different goals. See, I am a degreed engineer, I have a B.S. Electrical Engineering, I work in the Industrial field designed and maintaining all kinds of electrical products for the Gas & Oil industry.

OE products are usually designed as a compromise between cost, function / performance and reliability. Automotive is a little difference, especially when it comes to specialty cars the like the Mustang. But Ford still has to blend Cost, reliability and performance, however they weigh more heavily on Cost and Reliability and performance.

You can have both increased Reliability and Performance or increased Performance without sacrificing reliability if you increase the cost and that's what many of us are doing. Ford also sells V8 mustangs, which cost $7k more (assuming similarly optioned), but my mustang mods have a grand total of $4,350 and my mustang can now beat a stock GT PP, on the drag strip and smoke it on a track at a lower overall price point. It's much better on fuel as well so operating costs are also lower.

A car like that from the factory would certainly take away a significant margin of GT sales...so we also consider not just what can they do, but what does it financially makes sense to do. Lower tiers some times exist not just because of binning (semi-conductors that's a big part of the reason, it's more of a manufacturing fall out than artificial), but because of business and profits (aka what will the market support).

If your willing to do your own work and have a reasonable ability to understand complex systems and the impacts of change, the ecoboost mustang is one of the better platforms to modify due to the higher proportional gains dollar per dollar than other platforms currently on the market.

 

[Tune+]

Detonation, high EGT, and improper torque is what causes this usually. Very common with tuners that use FUEL cut instead of Throttle cut.

 

[TheLion]

Detonation, high EGT, and improper torque is what causes this usually. Very common with tuners that use FUEL cut instead of Throttle cut.

I'm sure it does, but we already resolved this issue as being related to improper plug type for this application. Livernois has not used Brisk plugs since early 2000's due to cracking insulators without resolution, the issue only occurred with the Brisk plugs they were using and did not occur with OE or Denso's, they haven't tried them since as they found the OE and Denso's to be adequate for their applications. OE's are obviously the most commonly used plug.

I contacted BOTH Brisk and Livernois about the issue. Brisk stated flat out the RR14YS was not appropriate for a tuned ecoboost stang and I needed to change to RR14S after tuning. I ran the YS when I was stock, never re-evaluated their suitability to higher power levels as I was not fully aware of the relationship between plug depth and it's effects timing as well as higher heat absorption (which is somewhat obvious).

The YS are projected tip plugs and sit deeper in the chamber than OE and much deeper than the S variant, so they absorb more heat (as evidenced also by the yellow discoloration of the insulator) and have the effect of advancing timing (spark is closer / more imersed in fuel / air mixture which results in faster flame front propagation). The RR14YS are great for stock PCM software and a few bolt on's like FMIC etc., not so for more highly modified applications.

IF I were have a repeat with the new RR14S plugs, I will first try the OE plugs (due to past known issues with Brisk plugs, that is the most logical next step) and if I were to continue to have yet more issues even with the OE plugs, I would then start to look at the Livernois software, but with thousands of ecoboost owners of all types (F-150's, SHO's, Focus / Fiesta ST's and now Mustang EB'S) running their software since EB engines first appeared, there is little evidence to suggest the software is at fault especially with an already known bad variable (incorrect plug application).

Trust me, if the issue were to continue, I will be sure to make it known and work it out until resolved.

 

[KrisR]

I still think it's a good idea to send a current log to your tuner and have them look at it and send a revision if they feel it's necessary. It's free, and could potentially save your ass if something has changed enough to require a revision.

 

[TheLion]

I still think it's a good idea to send a current log to your tuner and have them look at it and send a revision if they feel it's necessary. It's free, and could potentially save your ass if something has changed enough to require a revision.

Livernois doesn't generally look at OBDII data logs, it would be a rare occurrence for them to go that route as they test and verify on their shop cars.

Their software is more OE like as opposed to being a one up optimization that's so specific it's only reliable on your particular car. Certainly it is tailored for specific modifications, such as cooling, intake, down pipes etc. and they will update for free if you make a change, but they are not tweaking tables etc.

Also their programmer is just that, it's a programmer / code reader only, not a data logger. I have the OBDIILink MX and Torque Pro app to poke around OBDII data, but I'm not sure the data is nearly dense enough for anything other than general trouble shooting.

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