CFTP, should I switch to PS4S?

[misuracaf10]

Hello everyone, this may belong in the tire section or gt500 section ? But it was recommended to me that I put it here for best replies.

I have a stock 21 CFTP and I have been recently wondering about this. In my situation I am about 95% street. I do 1 track day maybe 2 if I'm lucky per year (live in Michigan). I am at an intermediate level. Would love to improve but that's going To take some time with only 1-2 days a year! Plus it's not really a full priority and its just fun to get out there here and there when I can.

Anyway, I'm considering switching to a PS4S for a few reasons. some of my reasoning may be accurate some may not be so that's why I am here.
From my understanding

- PS4S has better launch and straight-line grip due to its construction.
- Cup2s need to heat up in order to get maximum grip, which on the street you will not get to temperature unless it's about 90 degrees out?

-Will PS4S have better grip on corners on the street due to a cup2 not being up to operating temp?
- Are there any advantages to a Cup2 on the street?


Would a PS4S be a better tire on the track for an intermediate level driver? my thought would be that the PS4S may be a more forgiving tire on the track due to more controllable/predictable breakaway. I am definitely not pushing the car or cup2 to its limits. I am almost seeing the PS4S as a training tool and once that tire can be fully utilized then move up to a cup2?

Just looking to get a little more enjoyment out of the car every day I drive it. Does anyone think I will I actually notice if I switch (Street Driving)?
I am looking into the FP tires also to keep it stock

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[Ewheels]

I guess the question is do you prefer street characteristics or track performance?

PS4S is well regarded as the best all-around street tire you can get......however, they are pretty mediocre on track. They are fine for a beginner or someone just looking to have some fun but if you are trying to push yourself and improve your skills, the PS4S's on track overheat pretty quick, they get greasy when hot (overall pretty poor heat tolerance), and don't have the best grip compared to your standard "track tires."

I couldn't comment on PS4S vs cold Cup2 on the streets but you are correct in that you would never see full potential of the Cup2's on the streets as you'll never get enough heat into them. Would it still be more than PS4S....I'm not sure.

For what you've described as your use, I would recommend an endurance 200tw tire instead or one of the slower super 200's. Use Grassrootsmotorsports article as a guide.
These will hold up to the heat and abuse of track use and will certainly be faster than PS4S but are more livable on the streets than a Cup2.

Hope this helps and feel free to ask more questions if needed.

 

[Ewheels]

Honestly, I'm not a fan of Michelin tires in general. They make a good tire but they are almost always overpriced compared to the competition.

PS4S - there are other tires that have 90-100% of the performance for 50% of the cost.
Cup2 - there are tires that are faster and last longer for less money. Or for the same price, you can get Hoosiers which blow Cup2's out of the water.

 

[misuracaf10]

Honestly, I'm not a fan of Michelin tires in general. They make a good tire but they are almost always overpriced compared to the competition.

PS4S - there are other tires that have 90-100% of the performance for 50% of the cost.
Cup2 - there are tires that are faster and last longer for less money. Or for the same price, you can get Hoosiers which blow Cup2's out of the water.

Any brand recommendations that fit your description I can check out beside the Hoosier or is that the “go to” tire for what I’d be looking for ?

 

[Ewheels]

Any brand recommendations that fit your description I can check out beside the Hoosier or is that the “go to” tire for what I’d be looking for ?

For a PS4S replacement - Look at Continental ECF. Extremely heat tolerant on track, last a long time, very predictable. Plenty of tread and life for a street tire as well. Also cheaper.

For a Cup2 replacement - Goodyear 3R. Faster, last about the same on track, half the price.


For your use, certainly not Hoosier. Those are track only. R7 & A7 are not even street legal. The Track Attack Pro is street legal but would be a waste to use on the street other than driving to the track.

 

[GTP]

Okay, so, I ran 275 PS4 for about 16 track days on 8 different tracks, and over an 8 year span. I think that they are a good choice for improving your skills. For one, they are fine on the street, then driving to the track, as well as dry and wet track driving. They squeal a little when you are overdriving, IOW your slip angle is too high indicating you are not smooth enough, or on the wrong line, etc. So that is a nice little warning signal for you.

I have since started running 305 Cup 2 tires on 11" rims, square setup. I worked very hard on a precise alignment, extra front camber angle, etc. I already had experience with checking tire wear, tire temps, rotations, etc. I wanted to be sure to get the full life out of them, that is, for even wear so that I don't have to replace them prematurely.

My car has similar suspension and brakes as yours, plus the extra coolers, braces, spherical bearings and all that. On the PS4 my car felt pretty neutral. But the wide Cup 2s really transformed my car. The turn-in to slow corners was finally "fixed", and I could drive more aggressively.

As for the tires warming up ...
IME, Cup 2s warm up really fast. It is best to bring them up to temp gradually. To do that, I typically drive pretty mellow the first session (as does everyone else). Then faster and faster as the day (and ambient temp) progresses. By the afternoon, my tires will have increased by 10F.

Having said all that, I still have 3 sets of wheels: summer, all-season (for cold months or vacay), and track. So I don't drive track tires on the street, and I've heard that the Cup 2 just flings stones back at your quarter panel anyway.

If I were in your situation, and had one set of wheels, then I would continue on.
Should you wear out 2 or 4 tires, I would repurpose the OEM wheels for street use, and put on Conti ECF 02 (my preference over PS4). Then if you start tracking more often, you could look towards a square setup of 11"/305 or 11.5"/315 with fat spacers up front. Changing wheels between track and street duty, of course. Brake pads, too.

PS> See? I told you track guys would find you at this thread. Eric knows what he's talking about. His build and experience has been a real odyssey.

 

[misuracaf10]

ok thanks for the advice, now the challenge is to find sizes that work as i checked out the Continental ECF and they dont offer a size that works according to their website.

 

[GTP]

Continental ExtremeContact Sport 02
I found 305/30ZR20 103Y XL in your front wheel size. If it was me, I would buy 4 same size tires. The rears would be slightly stretched compared to fronts, probably hardly noticeable. (See image below, modeled for your 20" rims and OEM tires.) Also, when you buy all four tires the same size, the warranty period is not cut in half.

Otherwise you can get staggered 305 & 315 in the Pilot Sport 4.

This image models a 315 tire on your 11" front rims, and 305 tires on your 11.5" rear rims. The left shows a slight bulge, while the right shows a slight stretch.

For reference here is the OEM fit for rims and tires:

 

[NightmareMoon]

I think when they put a tire like the Cup2 on a sports car, they're mostly looking for favorable magazine stats. Its a cheater tire for that kind of situation, but as you're discovering, most people won't get that performance out of it on the street because they aren't pushing it hard enough to heat it up properly.

The problem with the Cup2 is they heat cycle quickly and when they're a little old and hardened, they're just terrible on the street unless you get them very hot, which you probably won't do on the street. Now Michelin has two formulations for the Cup2 and one is more streetable than the other. I'm not sure which one the GT500 comes with but I suspect is the latter.

MP4S or some of the 200TW tires might work. If you could talk yourself into a 295/30/20 Yokohama A052 (Which can fit on up to an 11.5" wheel), they would work at street temps and will grip better than either the MP4S or Cup2 at normal and cooler temps, and will be almost as fast as the wider Cup2 for the occasional track day.

 

[Ewheels]

ok thanks for the advice, now the challenge is to find sizes that work as i checked out the Continental ECF and they dont offer a size that works according to their website.

Tire Rack has a 305/30/20 (assuming you're on OEM wheels)

 

[misuracaf10]

Ok thanks guys I’ll check into both of these!
Are there any consequences to running a square setup on the car when it was staggered from factory?

 

[GTP]

Ok thanks guys I’ll check into both of these!
Are there any consequences to running a square setup on the car when it was staggered from factory?

Just some extra research and some steps to go through. Short version is you need long front studs, open-ended lugs, and 1-inch slip on spacers, and potentially even more camber than the OEM plates allow. Basically you buy four identical wheels that are spec'd for the rears (i.e. the 48-52mm offset range), but then the thick front spacers take up the gap from putting rear wheels onto the front. But then you can rotate your track wheels for longer and more even tire wear.

You may already have long front studs - I am not a GT500 specs expert.

 

[Ewheels]

Ok thanks guys I’ll check into both of these!
Are there any consequences to running a square setup on the car when it was staggered from factory?

@GTP I think he meant square tires on the OEM wheels.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think GT500 OEM is 10.5 front and 11 rear? 305mm front and 315 rear?

But either way, you can certainly still run a 305 front and rear on the OEM wheels sizes. With marginally less tire on the rear, you may find the car rotates a bit easier. It all depends on personal preference if you like a car that is more understeery or oversteery.

 

[misuracaf10]

@GTP I think he meant square tires on the OEM wheels.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think GT500 OEM is 10.5 front and 11 rear? 305mm front and 315 rear?

But either way, you can certainly still run a 305 front and rear on the OEM wheels sizes. With marginally less tire on the rear, you may find the car rotates a bit easier. It all depends on personal preference if you like a car that is more understeery or oversteery.

It is 11 wide in the front and 11.5 in the rear.
305 front 315 rear from factory

 

[GTP]

@GTP I think he meant square tires on the OEM wheels.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think GT500 OEM is 10.5 front and 11 rear? 305mm front and 315 rear?

But either way, you can certainly still run a 305 front and rear on the OEM wheels sizes. With marginally less tire on the rear, you may find the car rotates a bit easier. It all depends on personal preference if you like a car that is more understeery or oversteery.

Yeah, good point.

I personally would have no problem running square tires on staggered OEM wheels. And that is why I posted those two images from wheel-size.com.

But if he eventually gets a second set of wheels optimized for track use, I recommended identical wheels.

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