Brake Pad Replacement Questions

[72&18]

Yep, and every time I bleed my brakes, the next time thanksgiving rolls around the corner my wife is pissed wondering where the turkey baster went.....

My wife bought me my own after hers 'disappeared' several times over 30 years of marriage.

Sponsored

 

[JAJ]

Ok, I'l stick with the stock bolts. Not sure whether I should clean them and reuse or not. Some people say they are torque to yield some say they are not and the reason why Ford's manual asks you discard them is due to the blue stuff on threads and this risk of average mechanic not willing to go through with proper cleaning of their threads.

I have some further questions/clarifications. This is what I plan to do in the order below. My goal is to replace the pads and flush/replace brake fluid that is almost 4 years old.

Pad procedure:

1. Get the car on jack stands, remove all wheels.
2. Open the brake fluid reservoir cap to release pressure and place the cap on it loosely ensuring it will breathe.
3. Start with rear (easy) brake pads. Remove the two pins, the spring. Clean both with brake cleaner.
4. Use the old pads as leverage to push the pistons all the way back.
5. Slide out the old pads, slide in the new pads. Put the spring and pins back.
6. Next on the front calipers, loosen both caliper bolts but dont remove them.
7. Remove the push pins.
8. Remove the top bolt.
9. Insert the 180mm M14 bolt several times chasing the threads, cleaning the blue stuff out with air compressor.
10. Once all clean, insert the M14 bolt all the way. Repeat the process in the below bolt.
11. Slide the caliper out.
12. Use the old pads as leverage to push the pistons out.
13. Remove the old pads.
14. Remove and clean the spring and push pins with brake cleaner.
15. Insert the spring back, the new pads.
16. Slide the caliper back.
17. Remove the longer bolts one at a time, tighten the stock bolts by hand ensuring both top/bottom are tightened together only a few turns at a time.
18. Insert the push pins back.
19. Torque the caliper bolts to 136 ft/lbs.

Fluid flush/replacement procedure:

1. With the car on jackstands, wheels off.
2. Start from the passenger rear wheel outer bleed screw. In each wheel, always bleed the outer screw then the inner screw first.
3. Clean/remove the bleed screw cap.
4. Insert tubing (can anyone confirm the size of the tubing and whether the plastic bottle to be used needs to be airtight or the tube can be inserted freely?) To the bleed screw.
5. Loosen the bleed screw.
6. Ask my wife to continuously pump the brakes as I watch fluid to come out (does the car need to be running or can the pumping of the brakes be done while its off?)
7. Check the reservoir and add new brake fluid when the fluid level goes below minimum.
8. Once I see the new clean fluid, tighten the screw, remove the tubing, clean the screw, add back the cap, and move to the next side.
9. Repeat this until all sides are done going from passenger rear, to driver rear, to passenger front, and lastly driver front. In all of them, ensure clean fluid is entering the bottle and that there are no air bubbles.
10. Expect to use 1-1.5 liters of brake fluid (750ml is what the manual says, but with a full flush and bleed, I should expect to use more?)
11. Remove the excess fluid above the max fluid line after all 8 lines are done with a turkey baster.

I know using that fluid pumping container, this can be done without the second person but I am afraid that will introduce air into the system. It will also waste a lot of fluid not to mention might make a mess in the engine bay due to leaks or depressurizing. I think the old proven way of someone pumping the brakes is better. Its also important to have control of asking my wife to stop pumping the brakes if something goes wrong whereas that container will be under constant pressure and I will have to physically go to the hood and depressurize it which means big mess as I cant be in two places at once.

On the pad replacement thing, the push pins have a spring ring on the head end that locks them into the hole in the caliper. They have to be tapped in with a soft hammer or a hammer and pin punch to get them all the way in. You'll see this when you punch them out - a few hits with a pin punch and hammer on the pointy end and they're free, just held in by the anti-rattle spring tension.

So, when you reinstall the pads, the anti-rattle springs will push the pads out of place so just use the pins to line the pads up then just push them in as far as you can with your fingers. At the rear, once the pads are in place just knock the pins home with said soft-headed hammer or hammer and pin punch. At the front, again use the pins to position the pads and then once the caliper is bolted back into place, set the pins.

I don't think your bleeding strategy will work as intended. First, the inner side of the caliper is where the fluid for the outer side comes from, so flush it first. That way you're not pushing old fluid into the outer side of the caliper. Second, there's no one-way valve in the master cylinder, so the bleeder at the caliper has to be closed when the pedal comes back up. The sequence is pedal up - open bleeder - pedal down and hold - close bleeder - pedal up and hold- open bleeder - etc.

For a classic manual bleed like you're doing - they're very effective, by the way - start by pulling fluid out of the reservoir with a turkey baster or something similar. Lower the level down to just above the clutch fitting on the side. Then top up with new fluid and start the bleed. The first corner, RR, will take the most work because it's where you're flushing out all the old fluid in the master cylinder reservoir and the rear brake hard lines. I usually end up pumping the pedal about 40 times on the first corner, inside first for 16, then 8 to the outside, 8 more inside then finish with 8 more outside. The LR takes less because all you're bleeding is the short hardline and the caliper - 12 to the inside and 8 to the outside is enough. It'll take about 1/2 a liter to do the rears this way.

The fronts need fewer strokes - the stepped master cylinder piston moves more fluid per stroke up front. 8 strokes to the inside and 6 to the outside is usually lots.

By the time you're done you'll have used a bit over 1 quart of fluid.

UPDATE - I said two quarts, but I meant two pints, or just over 1 quart.

 

[UnhandledException]

On the pad replacement thing, the push pins have a spring ring on the head end that locks them into the hole in the caliper. They have to be tapped in with a soft hammer or a hammer and pin punch to get them all the way in. You'll see this when you punch them out - a few hits with a pin punch and hammer on the pointy end and they're free, just held in by the anti-rattle spring tension.

So, when you reinstall the pads, the anti-rattle springs will push the pads out of place so just use the pins to line the pads up then just push them in as far as you can with your fingers. At the rear, once the pads are in place just knock the pins home with said soft-headed hammer or hammer and pin punch. At the front, again use the pins to position the pads and then once the caliper is bolted back into place, set the pins.

I don't think your bleeding strategy will work as intended. First, the inner side of the caliper is where the fluid for the outer side comes from, so flush it first. That way you're not pushing old fluid into the outer side of the caliper. Second, there's no one-way valve in the master cylinder, so the bleeder at the caliper has to be closed when the pedal comes back up. The sequence is pedal up - open bleeder - pedal down and hold - close bleeder - pedal up and hold- open bleeder - etc.

For a classic manual bleed like you're doing - they're very effective, by the way - start by pulling fluid out of the reservoir with a turkey baster or something similar. Lower the level down to just above the clutch fitting on the side. Then top up with new fluid and start the bleed. The first corner, RR, will take the most work because it's where you're flushing out all the old fluid in the master cylinder reservoir and the rear brake hard lines. I usually end up pumping the pedal about 40 times on the first corner, inside first for 16, then 8 to the outside, 8 more inside then finish with 8 more outside. The LR takes less because all you're bleeding is the short hardline and the caliper - 12 to the inside and 8 to the outside is enough. It'll take about 1/2 a liter to do the rears this way.

The fronts need fewer strokes - the stepped master cylinder piston moves more fluid per stroke up front. 8 strokes to the inside and 6 to the outside is usually lots.

By the time you're done you'll have used a bit over 2 quarts of fluid.

Thank you. You have saved me a moment of embarrassment. I am pretty sure I would not have closed the bleeder between pedal presses.

Does it matter whether the bottle where the old fluid goes has some form of check valve or needs to be air tight OR can I simply put the plastic pipe freely in it? Should the bottle stay above the bleeder valve or below? I dont know from a physics perspective which is better?

Lastly, does the car need to be on for this manual process or can the brake pedal work when the car is completely off?

Is it recommended to use what is on the manual for the fluid or is there a better one that is recommended?

 

[JAJ]

Opening and closing the bleeder is the "check valve" function, so the hose is just a way to keep the fluid coming out from making a mess. The hose will lead up at the fitting and curve down to the catch-bottle. One thing that's in a lot of the instructions is to look for clean fluid coming out - thing is, the only difference will be color and it'll be subtle, so that's why I count pumps.

Also, thinking about it later, I realized I'd been a little too brief on the pedal pump technique. As I wrote it, it's correct and it'll work, but it's easier if you do it this way:

Start with the pedal up, no pressure on the brake pedal and the bleeder closed. Then have your assistant put pressure on the pedal, once there's pressure, turn the bleed screw far enough to release the pressure, which will cause the pedal to go to the floor. Hold the pedal on the floor while you close the bleeder. Once the bleeder is closed, let the pedal return to the top of travel and re-establish pressure on the pedal. Then open the bleeder, etc...

Do the whole operation with the engine off.

 

[UnhandledException]

Opening and closing the bleeder is the "check valve" function, so the hose is just a way to keep the fluid coming out from making a mess. The hose will lead up at the fitting and curve down to the catch-bottle. One thing that's in a lot of the instructions is to look for clean fluid coming out - thing is, the only difference will be color and it'll be subtle, so that's why I count pumps.

Also, thinking about it later, I realized I'd been a little too brief on the pedal pump technique. As I wrote it, it's correct and it'll work, but it's easier if you do it this way:

Start with the pedal up, no pressure on the brake pedal and the bleeder closed. Then have your assistant put pressure on the pedal, once there's pressure, turn the bleed screw far enough to release the pressure, which will cause the pedal to go to the floor. Hold the pedal on the floor while you close the bleeder. Once the bleeder is closed, let the pedal return to the top of travel and re-establish pressure on the pedal. Then open the bleeder, etc...

Do the whole operation with the engine off.

Thank you, I much appreciate your help.

 

[UnhandledException]

Follow up questions:

- What size of pin punch is needed? Also, are there brembo pin punches where the head has a groove that sits well into the pin surface?
- What size of piping do you need for fluid draining? Do you need zip ties to prevent leaks?
- Any particular brake cleaner to clean the springs and pins or any of them is good? I want to get the good stuff and not go cheap.
- I do have a torx 50 bit but I dont know if it can handle the torque required. Any particular brand recommended?
- I read many threads discussing many caliper piston spreaders and I am really confused as to what will get the job done. I know I can use the old pads but I have never done this before so I want to have the tool handy just in case. Plus it has been 4 years and those pistons are probably all the way out.

Thanks for your help!

 

[JAJ]

Follow up questions:

- What size of pin punch is needed? Also, are there brembo pin punches where the head has a groove that sits well into the pin surface?
- What size of piping do you need for fluid draining? Do you need zip ties to prevent leaks?
- Any particular brake cleaner to clean the springs and pins or any of them is good? I want to get the good stuff and not go cheap.
- I do have a torx 50 bit but I dont know if it can handle the torque required. Any particular brand recommended?
- I read many threads discussing many caliper piston spreaders and I am really confused as to what will get the job done. I know I can use the old pads but I have never done this before so I want to have the tool handy just in case. Plus it has been 4 years and those pistons are probably all the way out.

Thanks for your help!

In order:

- pin punch - about 3/32" or 1/8" or so - it's not critical so long as it's smaller than the pin itself. The end will be flat, but you're not driving it hard so just hold it in place with your fingers and tap firmly but gently with a small hammer. It only has to go about 1/4" in or so to release the spring on the other end.
- 1/4" is good enough - I use a silicone hose because it's more flexible, but regular plastic will do. Attach a weight - a 1/2" nut will do fine - to the end that goes in the jar or bottle you're using so it doesn't flop out while you're working.
- I just wipe the parts down with a cloth and put them back. If they need a scrub, soap and water works fine. Never grease them. Similarly, if you spill brake fluid, clean it up with water. The dirty little secret about brake cleaner is that it's unnecessary. It's great for removing glue, but I don't use it for brakes any more.
- you'll actually need a T60 torx, so get one with 1/2 drive and it'll handle the torque fine.
- reread this post in this thread - it's step by step on how push the pistons back. https://www.mustang6g.com/forums/threads/brake-pad-replacement-questions.141183/#post-2893589
Thing is with piston spreaders, there's no guarantee that a given spreader will work with a given caliper - they have to be the right size and shape - and that's why I like pry bars levering on the old pads - they always fit. Also, note, at the rear you can free up one pad at a time and replace it. Just don't leave the opposing pad pocket empty when you're working on pushing the pistons back - even an old pad is thick enough to keep the pistons from popping out of their barrels.

 

[UnhandledException]

In order:

- pin punch - about 3/32" or 1/8" or so - it's not critical so long as it's smaller than the pin itself. The end will be flat, but you're not driving it hard so just hold it in place with your fingers and tap firmly but gently with a small hammer. It only has to go about 1/4" in or so to release the spring on the other end.
- 1/4" is good enough - I use a silicone hose because it's more flexible, but regular plastic will do. Attach a weight - a 1/2" nut will do fine - to the end that goes in the jar or bottle you're using so it doesn't flop out while you're working.
- I just wipe the parts down with a cloth and put them back. If they need a scrub, soap and water works fine. Never grease them. Similarly, if you spill brake fluid, clean it up with water. The dirty little secret about brake cleaner is that it's unnecessary. It's great for removing glue, but I don't use it for brakes any more.
- you'll actually need a T60 torx, so get one with 1/2 drive and it'll handle the torque fine.
- reread this post in this thread - it's step by step on how push the pistons back. https://www.mustang6g.com/forums/threads/brake-pad-replacement-questions.141183/#post-2893589
Thing is with piston spreaders, there's no guarantee that a given spreader will work with a given caliper - they have to be the right size and shape - and that's why I like pry bars levering on the old pads - they always fit. Also, note, at the rear you can free up one pad at a time and replace it. Just don't leave the opposing pad pocket empty when you're working on pushing the pistons back - even an old pad is thick enough to keep the pistons from popping out of their barrels.

JAJ,

Thank you so much for all your help. I truly appreciate it. I will get those pry bars. Should i use some form of cloth to protect the iron rotors? I am assuming they wont bend or crack when used as leverage against the pads with these pry bars?

On another note, that video I linked on the first page has him push the pistons by hand because the reservoir cap is open (which is what I will do).So maybe it will be easy.

- Do you recommend that I clean the surfaces of the pistons (inside the caliper) with anything?
- Do you use anti seize of any sort on the pads?
- For rears and fronts, can you ever push or pull the pistons out too much and cause an issue with the calipers? I dont know if I push them inside too much or pull them out too much.

Thanks so much for your help!

 

[JAJ]

JAJ,

Thank you so much for all your help. I truly appreciate it. I will get those pry bars. Should i use some form of cloth to protect the iron rotors? I am assuming they wont bend or crack when used as leverage against the pads with these pry bars?

On another note, that video I linked on the first page has him push the pistons by hand because the reservoir cap is open (which is what I will do).So maybe it will be easy.

- Do you recommend that I clean the surfaces of the pistons (inside the caliper) with anything?
- Do you use anti seize of any sort on the pads?
- For rears and fronts, can you ever push or pull the pistons out too much and cause an issue with the calipers? I dont know if I push them inside too much or pull them out too much.

Thanks so much for your help!

You're welcome!

Something I haven't mentioned yet, and maybe it's obvious, is to do each corner of the car to completion before you move onto another corner. It doesn't matter which order they're in, but because you're pressurizing the brake system as you push the pistons back in, it's important that the three calipers you're not working on are fully assembled with pads and a rotor.

At the front, on the pry bar thing, you're not prying against the rotor. When you slide the caliper out on the long bolts, there's a 34mm gap between the faces of the pads. Once the rotor is off the hub (the next step in the process) you can just put the ends of the pry bars between the faces of the pads (roughly in the center) with the bends back to back as in the photo. You might have to adjust the steering a bit to get make the opening more accessible. Once you have the bars in place, just pry gently but firmly to push the pads apart, which pushes the pistons back into their bores. So long as you do it this way, there's very little that can go wrong because all of the pistons are covered with pads and the pads can't push the pistons in too far. The one thing that can be a problem is the brake reservoir - if you've topped it up as the pads wore down, it's possible that pushing the fluid back into the reservoir as you reset the pistons will cause it to overflow. Start with it about half-way up and check as you go along so it doesn't overflow.

At the rear, leave the hand-brake on so that the rotor is locked in place on the hub. You just tap the pins out and remove the spring, then pry with a couple of small screwdrivers between the ends of the backing plate and the rotor to move the pad out a bit, then pry from the center to push the pistons the rest of the way back in. Do one pad at a time. It's not hard to move them so you don't have to pry very hard.

The three questions:

- no - the pistons are like an inverted cup with the edges pressing on the back of the pad - if you look at a picture of a used pad, you can see the ring on it. The OEM pads have a rubber-like backing on them that essentially seals the hole, so don't expect much crud. If there is dirt in them, then brush or blow it out, but it's unlikely there'll be much there. Take care not to damage the rubber dust boots that surround the pistons if you're working in there.

- ABSOLUTELY NOT. Brakes like these need to be assembled dry.

- yes it's certainly possible that you can cause an issue, but it takes talent and perseverance to mess it up. If you follow the directions above you'll be fine.

Once you've done your first one, you'll realize it's a lot easier and simpler than it looks.

 

[matthewr87]

Is it worth opening the brake reservoir cap to make pushing in the pistons easier? I think I saw that in one of the Youtube videos.

 

[UnhandledException]

You're welcome!

Something I haven't mentioned yet, and maybe it's obvious, is to do each corner of the car to completion before you move onto another corner. It doesn't matter which order they're in, but because you're pressurizing the brake system as you push the pistons back in, it's important that the three calipers you're not working on are fully assembled with pads and a rotor.

At the front, on the pry bar thing, you're not prying against the rotor. When you slide the caliper out on the long bolts, there's a 34mm gap between the faces of the pads. Once the rotor is off the hub (the next step in the process) you can just put the ends of the pry bars between the faces of the pads (roughly in the center) with the bends back to back as in the photo. You might have to adjust the steering a bit to get make the opening more accessible. Once you have the bars in place, just pry gently but firmly to push the pads apart, which pushes the pistons back into their bores. So long as you do it this way, there's very little that can go wrong because all of the pistons are covered with pads and the pads can't push the pistons in too far. The one thing that can be a problem is the brake reservoir - if you've topped it up as the pads wore down, it's possible that pushing the fluid back into the reservoir as you reset the pistons will cause it to overflow. Start with it about half-way up and check as you go along so it doesn't overflow.

At the rear, leave the hand-brake on so that the rotor is locked in place on the hub. You just tap the pins out and remove the spring, then pry with a couple of small screwdrivers between the ends of the backing plate and the rotor to move the pad out a bit, then pry from the center to push the pistons the rest of the way back in. Do one pad at a time. It's not hard to move them so you don't have to pry very hard.

The three questions:

- no - the pistons are like an inverted cup with the edges pressing on the back of the pad - if you look at a picture of a used pad, you can see the ring on it. The OEM pads have a rubber-like backing on them that essentially seals the hole, so don't expect much crud. If there is dirt in them, then brush or blow it out, but it's unlikely there'll be much there. Take care not to damage the rubber dust boots that surround the pistons if you're working in there.

- ABSOLUTELY NOT. Brakes like these need to be assembled dry.

- yes it's certainly possible that you can cause an issue, but it takes talent and perseverance to mess it up. If you follow the directions above you'll be fine.

Once you've done your first one, you'll realize it's a lot easier and simpler than it looks.

Thank you for your input.

It's interesting you say to keep parking brake engaged. I always thought that you want to release that in order to free the pads no? Maybe I dont understand how parking brake works.

Actually on that note, one thing I just realized is I always wondered why I had to re-adjust my parking brake cable twice in 4 years. I assuming as rear pads worn out, I had to tighten that nut above the driveshaft that holds the cables. I am assuming once I put the new pads in, the hand brake simply will not engage as it will be impossible to lift it. So I must loosen it to back to where it was before?

I always thought the reason for the tightening of the handbrake was that the cable or the nuts were loosening. But I think all along it was the brake pads wearing that caused this.

 

[JAJ]

Is it worth opening the brake reservoir cap to make pushing in the pistons easier? I think I saw that in one of the Youtube videos.

Yes

 

[JAJ]

Thank you for your input.

It's interesting you say to keep parking brake engaged. I always thought that you want to release that in order to free the pads no? Maybe I dont understand how parking brake works.

Actually on that note, one thing I just realized is I always wondered why I had to re-adjust my parking brake cable twice in 4 years. I assuming as rear pads worn out, I had to tighten that nut above the driveshaft that holds the cables. I am assuming once I put the new pads in, the hand brake simply will not engage as it will be impossible to lift it. So I must loosen it to back to where it was before?

I always thought the reason for the tightening of the handbrake was that the cable or the nuts were loosening. But I think all along it was the brake pads wearing that caused this.

As far as Mustang is concerned, the GT350 parking brake is unique, at least until the GT500 came along. It's done the same way most BMW's are done - there's a cable-operated drum brake hidden inside the rear rotor hat - that's why it's so big. The service brakes have nothing to do with the parking brake - entirely separate. If you've had to adjust the cable, it's either stretch or the parking brake shoes need adjusting. Probably the latter.

 

[UnhandledException]

Just want to double check the part numbers for OEM brake pads as well as the brake fluid (I think brake pads now have different part numbers):

- I have FMC-FR3Z-2001-L and FMC-FR3Z-2200-E for front and rear brake pads. I also see lakelandford has the cheapest price (is this what everyone uses?).
- I have PM-20/WSS-M6C65-A2 as the brake fluid. I will be getting 2 liters of this (should I get more just in case?)

Many thanks!

 

[JAJ]

Just want to double check the part numbers for OEM brake pads as well as the brake fluid (I think brake pads now have different part numbers):

- I have FMC-FR3Z-2001-L and FMC-FR3Z-2200-E for front and rear brake pads. I also see lakelandford has the cheapest price (is this what everyone uses?).
- I have PM-20/WSS-M6C65-A2 as the brake fluid. I will be getting 2 liters of this (should I get more just in case?)

Many thanks!

The part numbers look right - although the "FMC-" at the front isn't part of the Ford part number - for instance the front pads are just FR3Z-2001-L. Brake fluid is just PM-20 as well.

As for prices, I'm in Canada so I can't comment on USA prices.

Sponsored