Boost by Gear with OEM Logic

[K4fxd]

When it is done!

Hopefully soon

Thanks.

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[Rolls]

Hopefully soon

Thanks.

When we do transbrake it will likely be released for both simultaneously as they use the same firmware updates, it is simply the clutch maps that are different. This will be released to workshops with the ability to test first.

 

[K4fxd]

@Rolls

I'd be 100% willing to test.

 

[Hammerhead13579]

Whatever happened with this?

 

[mejohn50]

Whatever happened with this?

If you’re referencing boost (torque) by gear…

I messed with it a bunch, then Uncle Sam did what Uncle Sam does, I pulled the blower off my car, and then I moved 6500 miles away from my car.

The bottom line is it all works, and can be made to work well. The issue is it needs several aspects of the tune that are typically not that accurate to be very accurate.

 

[John Papageorgiou]

Hello,

Thought I would share something I have been working on for a while.

I have a 2019 Mustang GT 10R80 with a Whipple. I typically run around on summer only street tires, but the tires are still no match for the power this thing makes in the first few gears. Depending on the weather, the pulley I am running, and the fuel I am running (pump gas or E85), I can spin the tires from a roll up to fifth gear. I have wanted to get boost (torque) by gear working on this but the Whipple OS seemed to make the intuitive options not work properly.

After testing a few things and working with one of our incredibly knowledgable forum members (@engineermike), I got it working...and it's hilarious. I can finally go WOT in any gear from any speed on my street tires without traction issues.

As you can see from this screen shot, at WOT (light blue line) in second gear it is limiting the torque (white line) to ~400 ft lbs. You can see that first gear is lower and third gear is higher. In this data log I had it set to 300 ft lbs in first, 400 ft lbs in second, and 500 ft lbs in third. You can see load (pink), torque (white), and throttle blade percentage (yellow) increase with every gear change corresponding with how I have the torque limits set in the calibration.

This is nowhere near fully dialed in. Each gear can take more power, and as you can see below it is also based on RPM, so I can really dial this in. This was a guess at how much first gear could take and then an increase with each gear change for testing purposes.

There are several limitations or possible issues that need to be contended with to make this work. For starters, the way the stock Mustang GT (and most all other V8 Mustang calibrations including Whipple) control the throttle blade for WOT operation is very simple. It basically ignores the driver demand table after a certain, calibrate-able, throttle pedal percentage. In order for torque by gear to work, the driver demand for WOT needs to be configured more like an Ecoboost, where it uses the driver demand table at WOT rather than ignoring it. The second limitation is that it only works through 6th gear, which I assume is a left over from either the 6R80 and/or the MT-82. I don't see this as a huge issue, becuase as you can see in the below screen shot I have it maxed out by fifth gear, but I guess some might find this limiting.

My next plan is to dial in the torque values more accurately for my setup, and then I am going to integrate this into one of my PCMTEC Custom OS slots so I can switch between a torque limited slot and a slot that has full power in all gears.

Do you still achieve solid 60-130 times with torque by gear tune?

 

[mejohn50]

Do you still achieve solid 60-130 times with torque by gear tune?

I never tried a 60-130 with it enabled. If you are having traction issues doing 60-130, this could absolutely help with that, but you'd need to do a lot of tweaking to get it dialed in. Then the weather will change or you'll be on a different road surface or whatever other variable will change and those settings will no longer be ideal.

I never planned to use torque by gear to do anything beyond make the car more street-friendly in lower gears, especially on my street tires. If I was trying to do a hero 60-130 run or whatever, I wouldn't use this logic unless I absolutely needed it, and even then I would probably have to make a few revisions trying to dial it in for the exact combination of variables at that moment.

Though this question does reveal one of the major downsides to doing something like this. If you aren't tuning the car yourself you are just stuck with the torque limits that are given to you. I am sure with some work one could find a good middle ground where the limits in place are good enough for most situations. Then you could just have two tune slots to switch between good enough torque by gear and no torque by gear.

 

[John Papageorgiou]

I never tried a 60-130 with it enabled. If you are having traction issues doing 60-130, this could absolutely help with that, but you'd need to do a lot of tweaking to get it dialed in. Then the weather will change or you'll be on a different road surface or whatever other variable will change and those settings will no longer be ideal.

I never planned to use torque by gear to do anything beyond make the car more street-friendly in lower gears, especially on my street tires. If I was trying to do a hero 60-130 run or whatever, I wouldn't use this logic unless I absolutely needed it, and even then I would probably have to make a few revisions trying to dial it in for the exact combination of variables at that moment.

Though this question does reveal one of the major downsides to doing something like this. If you aren't tuning the car yourself you are just stuck with the torque limits that are given to you. I am sure with some work one could find a good middle ground where the limits in place are good enough for most situations. Then you could just have two tune slots to switch between good enough torque by gear and no torque by gear.

I do a lot of roll racing at a non prepped race track 35-130 mph runs. But with my whippled 10R80 I cannot hit it in 2nd and still pedal a bit in 3rd on the hit. I was thinking if 2nd and 3rd were limited to say 400 and 500 footpound torque and then full torque 4th to 6th it would help me smooth out my runs.

 

[mejohn50]

I do a lot of roll racing at a non prepped race track 35-130 mph runs. But with my whippled 10R80 I cannot hit it in 2nd and still pedal a bit in 3rd on the hit. I was thinking if 2nd and 3rd were limited to say 400 and 500 footpound torque and then full torque 4th to 6th it would help me smooth out my runs.

This would help if for no other reason than making your runs consistent since the PCM would be modulating output rather than you. You just have to find someone willing to do it. There's a lot of up front work required to make it all function properly, but once that's done it's all pretty easy. I have a suspicion you may have a hard time finding a mainstream tuner willing to do this.

 

[Pistol_91]

I kind of skipped through this thread so I apologize if it's already been answered but is it possible to, instead of limiting torque, limit load. I feel like if you can limit load in the same way it would be easier/faster to get to the expected outcome.
Ex.
Limit load to
1.4 in 1st gear
1.6 2nd
1.8 3rd
And so on.

 

[mejohn50]

I kind of skipped through this thread so I apologize if it's already been answered but is it possible to, instead of limiting torque, limit load. I feel like if you can limit load in the same way it would be easier/faster to get to the expected outcome.
Ex.
Limit load to
1.4 in 1st gear
1.6 2nd
1.8 3rd
And so on.

Not that I’ve found, but in essence that’s what this is doing. All it’s doing is limiting the maximum torque request you can make with the driver demand table, which in turn directly limits load.

I do wish there was an easier way to do this that doesn’t involve changing how WOT works, but this is the only way I’ve found to make it work.

 

[Grimreaper]

This method is better than air load alone, will let the PCM use it's normal logic path to decide how. Tb(air load) reduction, spark, enleanment etc or combination the three as needed. Benefit here is small reduction using spark is far quicker than reducing moving air.

 

[Hammerhead13579]

I do a lot of roll racing at a non prepped race track 35-130 mph runs. But with my whippled 10R80 I cannot hit it in 2nd and still pedal a bit in 3rd on the hit. I was thinking if 2nd and 3rd were limited to say 400 and 500 footpound torque and then full torque 4th to 6th it would help me smooth out my runs.

What is your wheel/tire setup and what are your power figures to the wheels?
Are you allowed a burnout before the run?

 

[John Papageorgiou]

This would help if for no other reason than making your runs consistent since the PCM would be modulating output rather than you. You just have to find someone willing to do it. There's a lot of up front work required to make it all function properly, but once that's done it's all pretty easy. I have a suspicion you may have a hard time finding a mainstream tuner willing to do this.

Basically I want to be able to smash the throttle on the hit and not be on guard to let off and pedal it. I think as you’re suggesting if I can get it dialled in with my 3.55 gearing by the time I get to say 75mph I’ll be in 4th and full torque and maybe more consistent 60-130 runs or 100-200 km/hr runs (in Australia).

What is your wheel/tire setup and what are your power figures to the wheels?
Are you allowed a burnout before the run?

This is the problem, no burnouts allowed and the hit is strictly from 35-40 mph on non prepped race track. Power is only about 780-800 whp (whipple 3L, 3.75 pulley, LTH, E85). I run 305 x 40 x 18 e steet ss but I may go to 305 x 45 x 18 e street R. Can’t go to a 17 inch rim as I run big brakes. My diff gear is 3.55 so I could bring that down to a 3.31 but just thinking a torque by gear tune for 2nd and 3rd would help.

 

[Hammerhead13579]

This is the problem, no burnouts allowed and the hit is strictly from 35-40 mph on non prepped race track. Power is only about 780-800 whp (whipple 3L, 3.75 pulley, LTH, E85). I run 305 x 40 x 18 e steet ss but I may go to 305 x 45 x 18 e street R. Can’t go to a 17 inch rim as I run big brakes. My diff gear is 3.55 so I could bring that down to a 3.31 but just thinking a torque by gear tune for 2nd and 3rd would help.

I would get the opinion of MT tech support before switching because it might not be that much better.
That no burnouts policy is lame. Well, here are 2 other things that could help - tire pressure and camber. I run -0.5° for the drag strip (and street) in the rear and about 20 psi. You need the best contact patch you can get

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