Base GT track day limits

[luc]

After reading your post, I just couldn't walk away not saying anything. So before I start I want to apologize in advance if anything I a say is hurtful as I really don't mean to be personal.

Everyone starts somewhere and your writing this post gives me plenty of re-enforcement that you have a good head on your shoulders. This is for the 99% of people who didn't post this thread.

DON'T get on the track or behind the wheel unless you have a safe vehicle with proper prep work and this COST MONEY. period. Every weekend, one person (at least) crashes bad and most of the time it's someone driving over their head OR someone who has no clue.

Cars today are super fast and relatively cheap to buy, speeds are high at the track so, Brake Fluid, Tires, lug nuts, no fluid leaks, items being removed from the interior, floor mat's removed, tire pressures, Belts, situational awareness on and at the track are so important.

Best way to learn car control is in a huge parking lot covered with snow/ice and all traction control turned off. If you don't live in a cold climate, take a trip to Minnesota in the winter before jumping on any track, that's your first tip.

#1 Really scares me that (someone) would even know how to install any brake cooling properly! Learning how to brake properly is #1. Otherwise you'll fade the brakes regardless of any fluid and cooling ducts. And yes when the brakes fade, you normally have ZERO warning and you're backwards in the guardrail.

Proper braking is press super hard when approaching a corner and let OFF the brake pedal as you get closer to the corner. The total opposite of how you drive on the street. Learn this first.

#2. Mustangs are too heavy and require the best brake fluid out there or you will crash. Castrol SRF $78/bottle is the best. Now be careful not to buy it on sale for $68, why because it's 2-3 years old and looses it's stopping power. The master brake cylinder in normal Mustangs are junk and and the ABS is even worse. If you ever get going faster you need to be aware it can fail and cause you to crash. So buying a cheap car is a bad option. (I did't even get into how to bleed the brakes properly or if you should get stainless steel brake lines)

#3. You probably have one corner warning.

#4 I would keep it on as a novice, until it annoys you.

#5. Diff cooler will be mandatory as you get faster but hope you sell the car before that as it's not a safe track car.

#6. So the radiator is too small for prolonged track use. see #5.

#7. See #5.

As for your final thoughts, as you get more track time, changing fluids are cheap compared to Engines/Transmissions/Rear ends.

a. Engine oil every 4-6hrs of track time.
b. Transmissions every 3 track weekends (but remember the Trans is a weak link and will fail)
c. Rear end if it has a Torsen rear end once a Season if you don't have one, you need to put one in.

Get a Coach vs buying any go-fast parts for your car.

Hope this helps, most of all buddy up with the guys who have done it a long time, because even if they're wrong, they know more then you and will keep you alive.


Drive Safe

Care to share your racing or open track experience because some of what you say is simply wrong

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[WCRookie99]

Care to share your racing or open track experience because some of what you say is simply wrong

Really, please point out what's wrong?

PM me and I'll send you the info without embarrassing you in public.

 

[luc]

Really, please point out what's wrong?

PM me and I'll send you the info without embarrassing you in public.

The Mustang being so heavy that if not using the best brake fluid, you will crash would be one,
What about getting off the brake before turn in ? How do you trail brake if you do that?
Please share your experience with everyone
Btw, got my scca national license back in 1993 so i do have a few laps under my belt
Regards

 

[WCRookie99]

The Mustang being so heavy that if not using the best brake fluid, you will crash would be one,
What about getting off the brake before turn in ? How do you trail brake if you do that?
Please share your experience with everyone
Btw, got my scca national license back in 1993 so i do have a few laps under my belt
Regards

What about getting off the brake before turn in ? I said that. please reread my post.

How do you trail brake if you do that? LUC, you're Silly.

Please read this as you're confused:

https://driver61.com/uni/trail-braking/

Novice "Trail Brake" really. How about learn the line and braking points, first. Before that bring a safe car.

 

[WCRookie99]

@smithhead I wanted to share my $0.02 as I think some of the previous posts were rather extreme.

One in particular saying the mustang is a terrible track car and you should sell it immediately....that's craziness. Any car can be a track car. You just need to be sure it's prepared correctly.

Don't worry about upgrading your car immediately. You're a novice; you're going to be slow and that's fine. You'll pick up knowledge and experience as you go.
Starting out, the car can handle the speeds and abuse of a novice. You don't need to change anything. As you get more comfortable and pick up speed, I'd start with track brake pads and wider wheels/tires. After that, address issues as they come up. There's no sense adding cooling mods if you aren't getting the car that hot to begin with.
Spend your money on seat time and coaching.

Few things:
1. Regarding stability control and the nannies: a coach once told me "leave all the nannies ON until you can tell and feel that they are holding you back."
2. Regarding brakes: hard pedal, no brake = glazed pads = brake pads can't handle the heat. Time to upgrade.
Soft pedal, no brake = boiled brake fluid = correct braking technique or bleed air out or upgrade to higher temp fluid.
You'll feel gradually diminishing braking performance, it won't sneak up on you out of nowhere.
3. Various temps:
- engine coolant: the analog dial is useless. Monitor Cylinder Head Temp instead. Your coolant temps will be 10-15° below CHT. So if your CHT reaches about 240° it's time to back off.
- engine oil: unless this is a PP option only, the color gauge for oil temp is decently accurate. Not perfect, but it'll do. Unless you're reaching the red zone, don't worry about it. Change your engine oil frequently, stay out of red, and you're perfect.
- trans: no temp gauge here (maybe A10's have one, not sure). MT82 don't have heat issues but they don't like high rpm shifts. A10 definitely have heat issues.
- diff: without a temp sensor, it's hard to know for sure how hot you're getting it. I would upgrade fluid at least (cheap insurance) and then if you're really concerned, look into adding a temp sensor.

This may provide some helpful info as well:
First Track Day Prep and Expectations

So, with base Mustang GT being fast but the brakes crap (among many other items needed to be upgraded), plus a Novice driving, this combination on a Road Course will cause major issues quickly. As a Novice get's a false sense of security going quicker, the Base Mustang GT will become super dangerous maybe even the first weekend.

That's my point, prepare a safe car before going to the track. I'll argue, the Base Mustang GT requires significant upgrades to make it safe/last, that you're better off selling it and buying something else.

 

[barron64]

Don't forget to add camber plates and get a good track friendly alignment. A set of the factory 6 piston Brembo's and matching rotors should get you your needed brake upgrade. Should be able to pick up all components for this swap fairly cheap. Run a good quality DOT 4 fluid and have someone who knows how to install and bleed properly to help you out. Factory PP1 pads will work but they will wear quickly and dust the entire side of the car so you may want to find a better set of track day pads. Remember to drive withen yours and your cars limits. You don't have to try and set the lap record your first time out. Set a moderate pace, practice your braking markers, turn in position and exits rolling on the throttle...adding speed slowly as you gain experience. My stock PP1 was a blast on the track for multiple 20-30 minute sessions with no issues. Just be prepared to be needing brake pads and tires way sooner than if on the street.

 

[Fastoldman]

Dear WCRookie 99,

I think I understand why luc questioned some of your data because your responses are to a novice and he/she may have no understanding of trailbraking so that would go right over the individual's head. I think some of your statements are too boldly written and could be somewhat misleading to a new driver. I would disagree that the OP must use SRF as Motul 600 is used by many of us in competition with great results and brake ducting is extremely important for pad life, rotor life and reducing brake heat. I completely agree that fluids should be changed often and I use the 4-6 hour interval , but I would not suggest changing the fluid in the rear end once a year. According to good friends, who are also Ford Engineers, the rear end should be changed in the same time frame as other fluids, especially for aggressive drivers. Logic says the interval could be lengthened for a new driver. A diff cooler is not mandatory either , and I have run without one in various rear ends with no replacements except in a Spec Miata ( which lasted 5 years when others were replacing theirs every year ).We agree changing fluid is key, though, and a vent and catch can is smart , a cooler is also fine, but the key phrase is it is not mandatory. Lastly practicing in a large parking lot is not recommended at all , as there are fines and issues in doing this in many States, but going to a large parking lot where an autocross is being held is a great idea. Finally stating that his car is not safe is again another blanket statement that could cause a lot of worry for a new driver and there is no basis of fact. Of course, to ensure the vehicle is okay to be on a road course is why virtually all groups/ tracks require a tech inspection.

I feel almost all your statements have good intent , but like luc I felt they were too generalized and frankly not completely true in some cases.

PS - have been racing 40+ years ( Vipers, Mustangs, Miatas, Formula cars ) too many Regional titles to list, Driver awards, Viper National Championship , Licensed NASA and PCA Instructor,etc. in case you were wondered where my thoughts were coming from. Lastly I helped with a Motorsports Division, where I worked for many years, and we set up vehicles for both autocross and road racing.

 

[WCRookie99]

Dear WCRookie 99,

I think I understand why luc questioned some of your data because your responses are to a novice and he/she may have no understanding of trailbraking so that would go right over the individual's head. I think some of your statements are too boldly written and could be somewhat misleading to a new driver. I would disagree that the OP must use SRF as Motul 600 is used by many of us in competition with great results and brake ducting is extremely important for pad life, rotor life and reducing brake heat. I completely agree that fluids should be changed often and I use the 4-6 hour interval , but I would not suggest changing the fluid in the rear end once a year. According to good friends, who are also Ford Engineers, the rear end should be changed in the same time frame as other fluids, especially for aggressive drivers. Logic says the interval could be lengthened for a new driver. A diff cooler is not mandatory either , and I have run without one in various rear ends with no replacements except in a Spec Miata ( which lasted 5 years when others were replacing theirs every year ).We agree changing fluid is key, though, and a vent and catch can is smart , a cooler is also fine, but the key phrase is it is not mandatory. Lastly practicing in a large parking lot is not recommended at all , as there are fines and issues in doing this in many States, but going to a large parking lot where an autocross is being held is a great idea. Finally stating that his car is not safe is again another blanket statement that could cause a lot of worry for a new driver and there is no basis of fact. Of course, to ensure the vehicle is okay to be on a road course is why virtually all groups/ tracks require a tech inspection.

I feel almost all your statements have good intent , but like luc I felt they were too generalized and frankly not completely true in some cases.

PS - have been racing 40+ years ( Vipers, Mustangs, Miatas, Formula cars ) too many Regional titles to list, Driver awards, Viper National Championship , Licensed NASA and PCA Instructor,etc. in case you were wondered where my thoughts were coming from. Lastly I helped with a Motorsports Division, where I worked for many years, and we set up vehicles for both autocross and road racing.

Yep no worries, I didn’t question anyones background.

 

[WCRookie99]

Anyway enjoy, just trying to raise the level of awareness

 

[luc]

Yep no worries, I didn’t question anyones background. Just want to make sure Novices/experienced drivers have good head on their shoulders (and I’ve stated I believe the person who posted this thread does)

Below please see 2 photos:

By the way, I love Mustangs, so not specifically picking on a Base GT other then pointing out you can’t be cheap when it comes to being safe on a Road Course and traveling 130 mph say at Road America.

The first is a photo of a Boss 302R interior. All, FR500C’s, Boss 302R/S, FP350 Plus GT4,have this switch. Can you find it and even know what it is? Before I say, remember all of these have wayyyyyy better Brake ABS modules and master Cylinders then any Base Mustang GT.

The second is the result of brake failure at RA. (FYI, not the same car in both photos)

View attachment 659793

View attachment 659794

Frankly when it come to giving advices and making blankets statements regarding on track driving and track cars, background and experience matters so, why don’t you state them?
We all want new drivers to the hobby to be safe, that is a given but there is a huge difference in risks level and necessary car preparation between a novice doing track days and w2w racing
A base gt is totally fine for a beginner doing track days
As he progress and get faster, better pads, etc could be necessary, based on his speed
So, asking what your experience was didn’t seems to be out of line and in no ways did stating your qualifications was going to embarrass me
I have learned a long time ago that what get drivers in trouble the most is unchecked ego
Below is a few of the Mustangs that i have raced or tracked

 

[WCRookie99]

Frankly when it come to giving advices and making blankets statements regarding on track driving and track cars, background and experience matters so, why don’t you state them?
We all want new drivers to the hobby to be safe, that is a given but there is a huge difference in risks level and necessary car preparation between a novice doing track days and w2w racing
A base gt is totally fine for a beginner doing track days
As he progress and get faster, better pads, etc could be necessary, based on his speed
So, asking what your experience was didn’t seems to be out of line and in no ways did stating your qualifications was going to embarrass me
I have learned a long time ago that what get drivers in trouble the most is unchecked ego
Below is a few of the Mustangs that i have raced or tracked

ok

 

[luc]

Frankly when it come to giving advices and making blankets statements regarding on track driving and track cars, background and experience matters so, why don’t you state them?

Ok here you go:

Road Race History:
700+ track days over 30+ years
Past Instructor: PCA, BMW, Alfa, Shelby Club

YouTube Pro Races posted: Laguna Seca and Mosport




SCCA PRO SPEED WORLD CHALLENGE:

• ROOKIE OF THE YEAR - 1999 Speed World Challenge GT
• 3rd in Points - 1999 Speed World Challenge GT (Porsche 911RSR 3.8)
• (2) 2nd Place Finishes - Mosport ’99, Laguna Seca ’99
• (2) 3rd Place Finishes - Limerock ’99, Mid Ohio ’99
• (6) Top (5) Finishes
• (1) Fastest Race Lap - Mosport ’99

OTHER PRO RACING:

• (27) Professional Races (SCCA, Grand Am, IMSA, Koni)
• 2007 Daytona Koni Challenge (Lead race 6 laps)
• 2007 Rolex Mexico City Race Porsche GT3 Cup
• 2006 Grand Am Cup Daytona Test Days (6th quickest)
• 2002 Sebring World Challenge GT (Finished in the top 10)
• 2001 6 Hours at the Glen (w/Racers Group)
• 2000 Grand Am Cup Phoenix (Porsche 911 Cup Car)
• 1999 24 Hours of Daytona (Ferrari 348)…6 hours in car no damage
• 1995 IMSA Street Stock (9) races, Fastest Mustang @ Watkins Glen

AMATEUR RACING:

• (30+) SCCA Races
• (2) IMSA GT3 Cup Races in 2008
• (10) Race Wins (SCCA/Other National wins)
• (4) Track Records
• (4) Qualifying Track Records (T-2 Qualifying @ Road America 2007)
• 2013 SCCA Run-offs 5th Place T-1 Boss 302R
• 2006 SCCA Run-offs 10th place T-2 Dodge SRT-4
• Dodge Factory support 2005-2007

Over the years honored to compete against some of the best Road Racers over the years, as Laguna Seca Race posted and this Koni time sheet shows, 6th quickest in a car we picked up a few days before.

The Laguna Seca Race, Derek Bell, Paul Brown, Cooper, Kitchak, Archer, Halsmer, Dave Schardt, John Heinricy, etc. Even Calvin Fish as the pit reporter. Fun stuff.

So you see, you posted your experience and everyone is fine
Btw, LS has been my home track for a long time and i have raced there many times against drivers like Boris Said, etc
One of my friend and fellow amateur racer, Paul Mumford, won the 2003 world challenge there against a bunch of professional drivers
Anyhow, your background kind of explains your blanket statement
Track days have changed a lot and full out race cars and racers are now a very small part of the cars and drivers that goes to the track
You dont need a race car nor even a modified car to have fun on a race track today
Therefore your comment regarding a base gt, while understandable from a racer point of view, is pretty irrelevant in today lapping days

 

[Fastoldman]

Luc's great friend, and also mine, Paul Mumford, was a character and there is a monument on the spectator walkway going to the corkscrew. He not only won the race at Laguna Seca in a Comp Coupe Viper , his second race in WC, he happened to place 3rd at Road Atlanta in his initial event with the Series. Bringing him up kind of reminded me when we were both running in the Viper Days Series and thinking about all the Classroom Time then for drivers, and the large amount normally given today in NASA, SCCA, PCA and such. Noting that you are an Instructor with various groups ( appears all three of us have been or are currently) I would politely suggest maybe a bit more moderate tone in your explanations to novice drivers. I completely understand your motives of putting a little fear about preparation for those just starting, but I think you can tone it down, knowing as you do that there will be a tech inspection, and other Instructors will advise them about the dangers, etc. I think Luc is correct in quite a few areas, and I really appreciate you posting the picture of your accident, but I think it may cloud your feelings just a bit. I agree it is something to warn folks on, but track events are different from racing events. I respect your thoughts on braking especially after seeing the graphic picture, and like you I have my biases. I lost the brakes in the kink in a Viper, saved it, but by the next race event I had brake ducts. Huge advantage then , and huge today to save wear and tear , even on those who just do HPDEs.

I believe Luc and I just feel you need to moderate your advice and keep in mind the difference in HPDE events or paid track time with Groups, because the speeds are often lower and they definitely check folks cars over. All of us have been to the fast tracks, but I have found the bulk of the tracks I have run ( over 20 ) are a lot slower and safer than some like Road America, Road Atlanta, VIR , Mosport, etc.

I think those new drivers who are reading this are definitely getting the gist that they need to check over their car, use quality products recommended by those who have spent plenty of time destroying asphalt , and view the things that will help them enjoy and learn how to drive at speed.
Telling a new driver his car is not safe is just a bit extreme, but I believe your writing had a good intent. Use your Instructor skills and make the recommendations we all make to new track rats , but please remember the difference between those individuals and the serious amateur or pro racer.

 

[WCRookie99]

Luc's great friend, and also mine, Paul Mumford, was a character and there is a monument on the spectator walkway going to the corkscrew. He not only won the race at Laguna Seca in a Comp Coupe Viper , his second race in WC, he happened to place 3rd at Road Atlanta in his initial event with the Series. Bringing him up kind of reminded me when we were both running in the Viper Days Series and thinking about all the Classroom Time then for drivers, and the large amount normally given today in NASA, SCCA, PCA and such. Noting that you are an Instructor with various groups ( appears all three of us have been or are currently) I would politely suggest maybe a bit more moderate tone in your explanations to novice drivers. I completely understand your motives of putting a little fear about preparation for those just starting, but I think you can tone it down, knowing as you do that there will be a tech inspection, and other Instructors will advise them about the dangers, etc. I think Luc is correct in quite a few areas, and I really appreciate you posting the picture of your accident, but I think it may cloud your feelings just a bit. I agree it is something to warn folks on, but track events are different from racing events. I respect your thoughts on braking especially after seeing the graphic picture, and like you I have my biases. I lost the brakes in the kink in a Viper, saved it, but by the next race event I had brake ducts. Huge advantage then , and huge today to save wear and tear , even on those who just do HPDEs.

I believe Luc and I just feel you need to moderate your advice and keep in mind the difference in HPDE events or paid track time with Groups, because the speeds are often lower and they definitely check folks cars over. All of us have been to the fast tracks, but I have found the bulk of the tracks I have run ( over 20 ) are a lot slower and safer than some like Road America, Road Atlanta, VIR , Mosport, etc.

I think those new drivers who are reading this are definitely getting the gist that they need to check over their car, use quality products recommended by those who have spent plenty of time destroying asphalt , and view the things that will help them enjoy and learn how to drive at speed.
Telling a new driver his car is not safe is just a bit extreme, but I believe your writing had a good intent. Use your Instructor skills and make the recommendations we all make to new track rats , but please remember the difference between those individuals and the serious amateur or pro racer.

Yep Thanks. First of all, I never met Paul but he obviously was a very charismatic and well liked man. His talent to win in that Series at they time was certainly impressive.

Switching gears, the photo of the crashed Mustang at RA is not my car nor me driving rather an example of a brake failure that I witnessed. Sorry for that confusion.

The question of this thread "Base GT track day limits" is the topic. I've never "Sugar Coated" anything in my life and really not going to start now.

IMHO a BASE GT especially at fast tracks and Willow Springs has a huge sign when you enter it "Fastest Road in the West" will quickly become either dangerous or simply not a car you want to upgrade to make last/safe. It just isn't. Its like taking a Pinto back in the day and turning it into a Race Car. Haha, yes people did it but really makes zero sense.

If you said, Im buying a "body in white" or even a 2017 $22,000 stripped down Mustang eco boost and building it into a track car, I would feel way better about it.

The point that most cars at track events today are NOT track cars and just Street Cars people bring just to have fun, scares me even more and IS absolutely the WRONG message! This is not like going to Top Golf when you have no clue how to golf but let's drink and have a good time bugs the crap out of me.

My message was on point, honest, direct and no BS. I even apologized in advance. Road Racing events like HPDE are high speeds, dangerous, and should be respected.

Remember "red-mist" (not the character in SpongeBob SquarePants, or road rage) rather the feeling of not knowing were you are or confusion and/or trying to chase the car in front of you but making way too many mistakes along the way. It's real and Novices need to understand this could (not with everyone)happen.

So, Fastoldman, thank you for your comments and opinion but I simply disagree with your "soft" approach to learning or enjoying something very dangerous. Road Racing events like HPDE are fun great time until they're NOT.... We're trying to paint the FULL picture, not 1/2 the story and everything is just fun and games.

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